region7cards wrote:^^i have no comment on this topic but you spelled abortion wrong
I did. Didn't I?
As for C_91's post, I think that is a good debate, but adoption is a good outlet there. I know the nine months in which you're carrying the baby can be hell, but it would be worth it to save a life. I know a lot of kids that have had really troubled lives because of sh*tty parents. That's far worse then being conceived through rape. Your conception shouldn't be what people look at you by, and it isn't. They look at what kind of family you grow up with. Adoption can do wonders for people that object to abortion morally.
Thanks b489 and KTS for sig
But it's not murder. It's not murder until the fetus breathes oxygen on its own and becomes a baby. Otherwise we'd all celebrate our birthdays on the day we were conceived and we would refer to what we consider our birthdays today as merely the day we shed our motherly, vaginal cocoon.
However since I mentioned it, let's look at what scripture says. First there's the 6th commandment, which when correctly translated says, "You shall not commit murder." Murder implies a malicious premeditated killing, not any killing in general. Now let's look at what else the Tanach says. Throughout the bible the standard of morality could not be called "pro-life" by any stretch of the imagination. The god of the bible has no problem advocating or carrying out murders, wars, genocide, infanticide, and yes even abortions. In biblical times human personhood was not granted until 1 month after birth, because infant mortality was so high. For more information, check out the passages in this article:
So if people intend to use a selectively literal translation of the bible as a source of "morality" then they should be willing to apply the same standard to the rest of what the bible says. Likewise if abortion is tantamount to murder then we should also regard stillbirths and miscarriages as criminally negligent homicide. You cannot have it both ways.
Now here's the scientific aspect of it. Let me start off by saying that science cannot tell you whether or not abortion is murder, because that is not its role.
Science can however tell you that the clinically defined end of human life is the complete and irrevocible cessation of brain function. If the heart or lungs stop working, the person's life can be saved if they are restarted, because their role is to sustain the brain. If the brain stops working, it cannot be restarted. Therefore if the end of human life is the end of brain function, then the beginning of human life is the start of brain function. A zygote does not have a working brain, whereas a fetus is born with a working brain, so we know it starts at some point in between. This time is around the third trimester, which in fact is the same exact time that the laws in most places already restrict the termination of pregnancies. On the other hand if human personhood is granted to a zygote then it should also be granted to eggs and sperm, because the potentiality for it to develop into an infant is there in all cases. You cannot have it both ways.
Science can also tell you that just as there is a direct continuum of developmental changes between a zygote and a human infant, there is a direct continuum of ancestral / evolutionary changes connecting modern humans to the common ancestor we share with our closest living relatives, chimpanzees. So science can't tell you whether abortion is murder. However it can tell you that if abortion is regarded as murder, then the killing of chimpanzees should also be regarded as murder. You cannot have it both ways.
Since this particular topic is about the policies and leadership of president Bush though, the debate over whether or not he is "pro-life" is rather moot at this point considering his positions on the Iraq war, capital punishment, and health care.
Kyle the Skeptic wrote:All right I didn't want to get dragged into my something-hundredth abortion debate, but here's my take. As I've already said, abortion amounts to little more than a [you]distraction[/you] issue; a small wrinkle in the much more pertinent issue of health care. Far more could be accomplished by preventing unwanted or dangerous pregnancies in the first place than by attempting to ban abortion (look up the "Global Gag Rule" for an example of this). It is already an extremely rare procedure as it is, and it hardly qualifies as the most pressing life-or-death issue facing society today.
Imagine if we could divert half the energy that's wasted on this pointless debate to actual health care problems. Then maybe old people wouldn't have to piss away thier kids' inheritance on overpriced medications they need to string themselves along for a few more years.
It's like people are arguing over how to cure someone's cough without finding out what's causing it and fixing that instead. Fight the disease, not the symptom, people.
You read it! You can't unread it!
Last night I was heading into New York City with some relatives to have dinner in Chinatown. We had just picked them up from JFK airport, which itself was packed, so I didn't have time to stop at a restroom. We took the Battery tunnel, which turned out to be a huge mistake. Traffic was brought to a complete halt inside the tunnel for a full half hour. Not only did that mean that everyone was going to be choking on their own fumes, it was also dangerous because had there been a medical emergency there was no way any emergency vehicles could get down there.
We called the city's municipal headquarters and found out why traffic was stopped without warning. President Bush and his wife were visiting Ground Zero to lay down some wreaths, so naturally everyone had to stand aside for his royal highness to walk up and molest the dead. By the time we got to the city we found that the police had barricaded most of the roads, creating a gridlock on nearly every block. We almost got into several accidents because of it.
Given Bush's track record, this isn't at all surprising. He needs to make other people suffer so that he can make a shallow gesture, or he just doesn't care. I should probably be thankful nobody was killed as a result of his actions (at least this time). My aunt commented at the restaurant that she would not be visiting the city today, because it would probably look like a zoo. I commented why not? After all they already brought in the monkey!
He's inconsiderate and incredibly conceited. Not the kind of qualities that make a good person, and not the kind of person I'd want to hang out at a bar with.
BTW, I'm buying this t-shirt:
Stephen Colbert: the biggest pair of nuts in showbuisness!
@presedent bush: go f*ck yourself!!
"shut the hell up you fucken fat-ass!!!"
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