*2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Discuss new episodes without ruining them for people in other time zones.

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elederago
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby elederago » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:05 pm

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having been in an abusive relationship I really hate the cartmen/Heidi relationship. I don't find it funny at all and I wish that matt and trey would end it because I personally think its dragging the show down

I like heidi though

as for the president and his interaction with Mitch maconnall. Paul Ryan and mike pence NOW THAT was funny in a dark way. I wanted to see more of that
Hailcoaster
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Hailcoaster » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:44 pm

I feel like one of the most prominent aspects of this episode was the portrayal of the characters' psychology, the writing and the dialogue did a great job depicting how people get into toxic relationships in the first place, and why it is difficult for them to get away once they're in.

Kyle for instance, is portrayed as a caring and moral-ridden individual, that although rational, lets his emotions and sense of justice get involved in his course of action. He desired to intervene because he considered it to be the right thing to do, never once questioning his personal interest for Heidi until the girls pointed it out. While all the other kids aknowledge Cartman's demeanor towards Heidi, none of them are willing to get themselves involved in it, whereas Kyle has always been the one to confront Cartman's wrong doings and pursuit him, positioning himself as 'good' and Cartman as 'evil', dynamic that has ultimately served to feed both Cartman's enthusiasm to torture him, and Kyle's sense of selfrighteousness and tendency to see himself as a martyr, trait that he shares with Cartman, but as he stated, 'We all wrongly see ourselves as the victim sometimes, but Cartman sees himself as the victim ALL the time', the main difference being that Kyle is able to aknowledge his mistakes and learn from them, unlike Cartman.

To get some insight into Kyle's remark: 'In a way, I feel like we're all going out with Cartman right now' reflecting on how all of them are, at some degree, and specially Kyle, always been involved in a toxic relationship with Cartman's mind games. Kyle has been, for a long time now, Cartman's main sympathizer, he can't help but look out for his personal improvement, and often attempted to get him to do the right thing and gain counsciousness on his own warped mentality, desire that Cartman would not hesitate to take advantage of, tricking Kyle into commiting to a cause if he could profit from his support.

In this episode, Kyle appears to have come to the conclussion that Cartman is beyond help, and that neither he nor Heidi can do anything to change that, for the best thing they can do for him is not to feed his sociopathic needs, furthermore demonstrated by their encounter on the hallway, with Kyle continuously trying to reason with him and assure him it was all for his own good, Cartman making deaf ears to his claims, finally leaving Kyle no choice but to knock him out in self defense, who apologizes regretful.

Cartman, on the other side, is miserable with Heidi, but also without her. As I stated on the last thread concerning their relationship:
'He can't bring himself to end the relationship and thus giving Heidi freedom of choice, she's a property and so Cartman can't stand the idea of his belongings moving on to other people. Cartman thinks of Heidi as a tool that exists with the only purpose of being at his disposition to offer him constant attention and validation, nothing more, nothing less.

Simultaneously, Cartman can't stand Heidi, because she doesn't fit the description of Cartman's ideal image of her. Naturally, Heidi isn't the tool Cartman expects her to be, she is an human being with her own individual needs. Whereas Cartman looks for a relationship where he is the center of attention, never giving anything in return, and a partner willing to follow him blindly against all the odds, without him having to worry about losing their support; Heidi looks for a functional, healthy romantic relationship, were all the parties involved contribute their part. Cartman is unwilling to fulfill this role, because doing so would position him as an equal of Heidi's, which means, to him, degrade him from his high-entity status.'
Nearing the end Cartman has found a way of manipulating Heidi into believing she's in the relationship she craved for, and thus avoiding any sign of resistance from her. He has learned that if he wants to manipulate Heidi successfully, he needs to put a little effort on the relationship every now and then, offering her reassurance. This way, Cartman can act selfishly while at the same time 'rewarding' Heidi for her subservience, throwing away any doubt she might had in him. He fools her into believing his wrongdoings are common human flaws that need to exist in order to keep improving himself.

Heidi is portrayed as someone who desires to aid the needy, she cannot bring herself to refuse someone's cries for help, which is the main reason she continues to be stuck with Cartman and allows herself to be manipulated by him. He sees in Cartman someone who takes bad decisions, but is fundamentally kindhearted. Someone who is in need for her guidance. Even when ditching Kyle after being indoctrinated by Cartman, her kind nature is a definitive trait of her character. Cartman was persuasive enough to convince her of his beliefs, he made sure until the last moment that his ideas appeared to be reasonably fundamented. He told her what she wanted to hear when she was feeling the most guilty, deflecting the blame for the failure of their relationship unto Kyle instead, but reassuring her image of Kyle by telling her he hadn't been counscious of his actions. He convinced her of attributing her own supposed flaws ('being moody') to her ethnic background, and this way implying she has no control over ever improving herself, comforting her but making her feel helpess over her situation at the same time, this serves to Cartman as a mechanism to increase her emotional dependence to him, by making her feel he's the only one who will ever love her despite her imperfections.

Regarding Cartman's idea of Kyle, I feel like Cartman projects all of his own corruption unto Kyle. He subcounsciously thinks of Kyle as his equal, although he cannot recognize the corruption from within. Kyle's intentions are never pure in Cartman's mind, he must always be plotting something against him the same way he himself does to him. To him, Kyle's purpose in life is to get in Cartman's way. As the series progressed, we've seen Cartman gradually watering down his hostility towards Kyle in latter seasons the more time they spent together, and instead replacing it with an odd sense of familiarity and trust, until this point, Cartman's friendly demeanor towards Kyle that even manifested itself at one point earlier in the episode, takes a sudden turn the moment Cartman finds out he might have been responsible for his breakup with Heidi. Following this event, we see Cartman's hatred towards Kyle reach its peak when he goes batshit after his trippy jewish dream sequence, spewing all his resentments against Kyle in spite of the latter's attempts to excuse himself, Cartman feeling betrayed after letting himself 'fall into Kyle's claws' by allowing him the benefit of the doubt previously.

Having stated all this, I think Cartman has taken care of the problems he had with Heidi, and now that the challenge is over, the last scene leads me to believe he has shifted his interest from the pleasure he obtains from having domain over her, to the impact his behaviour towards her has on Kyle instead. He's using his influence on the people around Kyle to make them into proxys as a mean to inflict pain onto him. Heidi is no longer the tool, his entire relationship with her is now a tool on itself.

It was also interesting to see the conection between B plot and A plot relying on the parallel of the toxic relationship between Cartman, Kyle and Heidi, and that of politicians with their supporters, instead of having each storyline intersecting with the other, though I don't have a strong stand on the matter, since I'm for the most part ignorant concerning the USA political status.

The weakest point of the episode in my opinion was the introduction of elements that seemingly served no purpose in the narrative, and ultimately aimed for a specific purpose in order to lead the plot in a certain direction. For example, Cartman's dialogue when making fun of Heidi for gaining weight after tricking her into introducing meat into her vegan diet, indicated he had a goal in mind by doing this, though we never get any insight on what this particular goal may be other than to reassure his dominance over her. Besides this being a dangerous move for Cartman to make just after getting Heidi's trust back, it seemed like it didn't serve any purpose other than to incite Kyle into intervening in the relationship. Another example would be Cartman visiting Token's house, there wasn't really a point for Cartman to do this besides giving him the chance to make racial remarks some more. Finding out about Kyle being responsible for his breakup with Heidi through Token's dad seemed too coincidental, though I don't really have mind, even less after being presented with Cartman's fantastic Kyle delirium sequence.

I really enjoyed the execution of the humor, there were some great jokes, the animation team did an amazing job and overall I think this was a fantastic episode with a rather dark thematic.
Last edited by Hailcoaster on Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
MichaelTanzerCanada
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby MichaelTanzerCanada » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:55 pm

Let me get this straight: Heidi really hates Jews like Cartman does now? Seriously?
Heiman forever! Favourite OTP since Season 20! <3
Hailcoaster
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Hailcoaster » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:11 am

MichaelTanzerCanada wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:55 pm
Let me get this straight: Heidi really hates Jews like Cartman does now? Seriously?
She doesn't exactly 'hate' them, she just thinks they're not to be trusted.
Last edited by Hailcoaster on Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Big-Will
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Big-Will » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:12 am

MichaelTanzerCanada wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:55 pm
Let me get this straight: Heidi really hates Jews like Cartman does now? Seriously?
She's taken the first steps, yeah, which is why some fans think there's a second part to this story next week. She also did gain weight, as at the end of the episode she still had the small beer gut and the trapezoid legs fat kids in the show have.

But Trey can just leave things as they now are and bring us something completely different next week. We'll know soon enough what's next.
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triplemultiplex
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby triplemultiplex » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:37 am

Man, fuck Cartman; fuck him right in the ear.
It's always an injustice whenever Fatass gets his way yet this is somehow a new low for him. Because now he's manipulated an otherwise good person into being a piece of shit just like him. At least Kyle was able to punch him in his stupid, fat face.

So yeah, I hate Fatass and what he's doing, but this was poignant episode. Drawing parallels between Lardo's toxic, manipulative relationship and what's going on between President Orange Anus and the Republicans is right on the money. Although that does make the rest of the right-wing clown car analogous to poor Heidi, as if those shit-sippers had nothing to do with creating the conditions that brought a con-man to the Oval Office, it still holds. It's a terrible relationship that's so bad, it's hurting other people, but they keep pretending they are going to make this work.

The reason Republicans are putting up with this shit is because they want their delicious tax hand-outs (they are not cuts, they are hand-outs to the wealthy) and they'll fuck Satan himself in order to get them. Heidi's motivation for sticking it out is less clear. I think Fatass duped her into thinking the elation she felt after freeing herself from the bullshit of social media had something to do with him. So now she thinks she needs to stay with him to keep feeling good, despite his repeated attempts to literally kill her!!

I guess I didn't laugh very much either. Fatass making fun of a non-fat person for being fat just made me angry.
Same thing with his racist bullshit over at Token's house. Tricking Heidi into eating meat was just mean.
The scene with Kyle and the girls in the gym was by far the funniest. You don't expect Kyle to actually take a step back and consider that the girls might be on to something in their playful taunting. I also enjoyed the visual of Kyle getting his hair all done up only to throw on his same hat he always wears.

There are a lot of plot points this week we haven't heard the last of this season. Maybe not next week necessarily, but before the season is out for sure.
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mario88
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby mario88 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:56 am

I was curious to read the reviews of people who do it by profession. Since I don't know anyone in particular, I just googled "doubling down" + "south park" + "review". I stumbled upon this one, first result on google, with quite a poor rating and the question: " Why Does South Park Think a Trump Rape Joke Is So Funny?" The site is vulture.com.

Well, they entirely missed the point: sure, it wasn't funny. But it wasn't supposed to be.

Do these people even get paid for writing crap?

You can criticize the turn the show has taken if you don't like it but at least you should understand what you are watching first.

Luckily, many other sites had much more insightful reviews, like forbes.com (although I have to say I disagree with them on 2 points)

About Heidi: my opinion is that she doesn't leave Cartman, among other possible reasons, because she doesn't want to admit she has completely wasted a period of her life and done something unforgivably stupid by being in a totally abusive relationship with him.

She basically said it herself, although indirectly, when she tells to kyle' "you, too want to say: 'i told you so'?"

And Kyle understands it immediately, so he tries to make her understand she's not stupid, cause clever people make stupid decisions, too. He tries to explain her how she fell in cartman's trap.

Kyle is clever, but so is his evil counterpart... So he reverses that, Kyle can't be trusted cause he's a sneaky Jew, so whatever he said is not true, he was just manipulating you and so on.

On an unrelated note, I see that you guys always mention Trey and never Matt, so i have to assume (and please forgive my blissful ignorance) that trey is the main if not the only mind behind the show?

On yet another note, are still there heiman shippers? :lol: I guess not but you never know.
He is the record!
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Big-Will » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:10 am

Trey and Matt used to appear together under "written by" when the show was young, but it soon just said "Trey Parker" as it does now. Matt is now among a small group of writers who help shape the story, but it's Trey who writes the scripts. See...
mario88 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:56 am
On yet another note, are still there heiman shippers? :lol: I guess not but you never know.
There are, and what's happening on the show won't change that.
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SouthAl93
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby SouthAl93 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:13 am

Big-Will wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:12 am
MichaelTanzerCanada wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:55 pm
Let me get this straight: Heidi really hates Jews like Cartman does now? Seriously?
She's taken the first steps, yeah, which is why some fans think there's a second part to this story next week. But Trey can just leave things as they now are and bring us something completely different next week. We'll know soon enough what's next.
Next week's episode better involve Mint Berry Crunch.
South Park is way funnier than Family Guy.
Also Mr. Garrison and Donald Trump are two SEPARATE people with completely different career backgrounds.
MichaelTanzerCanada
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby MichaelTanzerCanada » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:14 am

mario88 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:56 am
I was curious to read the reviews of people who do it by profession. Since I don't know anyone in particular, I just googled "doubling down" + "south park" + "review". I stumbled upon this one, first result on google, with quite a poor rating and the question: " Why Does South Park Think a Trump Rape Joke Is So Funny?" The site is vulture.com.

Well, they entirely missed the point: sure, it wasn't funny. But it wasn't supposed to be.

Do these people even get paid for writing crap?

You can criticize the turn the show has taken if you don't like it but at least you should understand what you are watching first.

Luckily, many other sites had much more insightful reviews, like forbes.com (although I have to say I disagree with them on 2 points)

About Heidi: my opinion is that she doesn't leave Cartman, among other possible reasons, because she doesn't want to admit she has completely wasted a period of her life and done something unforgivably stupid by being in a totally abusive relationship with him.

She basically said it herself, although indirectly, when she tells to kyle' "you, too want to say: 'i told you so'?"

And Kyle understands it immediately, so he tries to make her understand she's not stupid, cause clever people make stupid decisions, too. He tries to explain her how she fell in cartman's trap.

Kyle is clever, but so is his evil counterpart... So he reverses that, Kyle can't be trusted cause he's a sneaky Jew, so whatever he said is not true, he was just manipulating you and so on.

On an unrelated note, I see that you guys always mention Trey and never Matt, so i have to assume (and please forgive my blissful ignorance) that trey is the main if not the only mind behind the show?

On yet another note, are still there heiman shippers? :lol: I guess not but you never know.
Yes indeed, I ship Heiman a lot!
Heiman forever! Favourite OTP since Season 20! <3
SouthAl93
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby SouthAl93 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:26 am

mario88 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:56 am
I was curious to read the reviews of people who do it by profession. Since I don't know anyone in particular, I just googled "doubling down" + "south park" + "review". I stumbled upon this one, first result on google, with quite a poor rating and the question: " Why Does South Park Think a Trump Rape Joke Is So Funny?" The site is vulture.com.

Well, they entirely missed the point: sure, it wasn't funny. But it wasn't supposed to be.

Do these people even get paid for writing crap?

You can criticize the turn the show has taken if you don't like it but at least you should understand what you are watching first.

Luckily, many other sites had much more insightful reviews, like forbes.com (although I have to say I disagree with them on 2 points)

About Heidi: my opinion is that she doesn't leave Cartman, among other possible reasons, because she doesn't want to admit she has completely wasted a period of her life and done something unforgivably stupid by being in a totally abusive relationship with him.

She basically said it herself, although indirectly, when she tells to kyle' "you, too want to say: 'i told you so'?"

And Kyle understands it immediately, so he tries to make her understand she's not stupid, cause clever people make stupid decisions, too. He tries to explain her how she fell in cartman's trap.

Kyle is clever, but so is his evil counterpart... So he reverses that, Kyle can't be trusted cause he's a sneaky Jew, so whatever he said is not true, he was just manipulating you and so on.

On an unrelated note, I see that you guys always mention Trey and never Matt, so i have to assume (and please forgive my blissful ignorance) that trey is the main if not the only mind behind the show?

On yet another note, are still there heiman shippers? :lol: I guess not but you never know.
I ship Heiman too but what about the other couples at school? Did they reconcile with each other yet?
South Park is way funnier than Family Guy.
Also Mr. Garrison and Donald Trump are two SEPARATE people with completely different career backgrounds.
kfgg
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby kfgg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:27 am

Big-Will wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:10 am
Trey and Matt used to appear together under "written by" when the show was young, but it soon just said "Trey Parker" as it does now. Matt is now among a small group of writers who help shape the story, but it's Trey who writes the scripts. See...
mario88 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:56 am
On yet another note, are still there heiman shippers? :lol: I guess not but you never know.
There are, and what's happening on the show won't change that.
They have "Consultants" particularly Bill Hader (Since at least 2008). Lately also including A.J. Holmes, Jameel Saleem, Josh Gad, etc. They basically, if I'm not completely wrong pass around ideas in the writers room. They might also do other things (Provide voices, etc) Trey as you said basically takes all of that and writes it out in his office and they continue.
kfgg
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby kfgg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:33 am

As for Heidi, she's there for the purpose of setting off or irritating Cartman (As needed)

If they want to irritate Cartman, it's almost always been Kyle. Now Heidi (And again, Kyle this past episode) and I think Kevin once or twice. And Butters.

If they need Cartman to do something crazy, they can have Heidi irritate him and instigate that.

If they need Cartman to do something cute, they can have him do something cute with Heidi (Trick or Treating for example)

If they need a running joke, they can have Heidi show up and it's a go.

There's many possibilities there.
mario88
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby mario88 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:11 pm

SouthAl93 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:13 am

Next week's episode better involve Mint Berry Crunch.
indeed! we need some crunchy mint to freshen things up. :mrgreen:

hopefully he's already sorted things out in kokujon.
He is the record!
mario88
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby mario88 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:18 pm

when i was a little kid, our national television still aired disney classics, mostly during xmas time. so i could get the dumbo reference. i missed the other one (about the dancing cats or whatever it is), i had to read other comments to know about it. i'm not even sure it ever aired in italy and from what i can gather it was kind of superlame.

anyone under the age of 25 now, at least in italy, will miss the dumbo reference.
He is the record!

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