*2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Discuss new episodes without ruining them for people in other time zones.

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mario88
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby mario88 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:18 pm

when i was a little kid, our national television still aired disney classics, mostly during xmas time. so i could get the dumbo reference. i missed the other one (about the dancing cats or whatever it is), i had to read other comments to know about it. i'm not even sure it ever aired in italy and from what i can gather it was kind of superlame.

anyone under the age of 25 now, at least in italy, will miss the dumbo reference.
He is the record!
Shane McCormick
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Shane McCormick » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:53 pm

I'm not going to lie, I hated this episode. We have Heidi, President Garrison, Member Berries, and none of the boys mattering except Cartman and Kyle. All we are missing is Gerald and we basically have a season 20 episode. I would think that they would have wanted to move away from those elements, but I guess not, because we have the second season in a row dominated by the Cartman/Heidi story-line, and it is just getting old. If we are going to have continuity, we could at least have a new story-line and not just doing one from the worst season of the series.

Maybe I could let some of this go if this was at least funny, but it just isn't. I really want to have high hopes with the last three episodes, but with the track record of the last few episodes of seasons 18-20 and the shipping pandering being so high, I have my doubts. I'm sorry but this episode gets a 1/10 (also gotta love how they recycled a deleted scene from season 20 to fill in time.)
SouthAl93
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby SouthAl93 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:19 am

How come no one has said anything about if the girls made amends with all the boys yet after the reset of the Internet which supposedly put an end to the gender wars? Are the girls still against the boys or something? There are some couples that some people really need to know their fate about. I demand that the next episode, or the remain two Season 21 episodes after that to put an end to the gender wars once and for all because we need a proper conclusion to the gender wars and see all or most of the couples reconcile with each other. The girls have no reason to be mad at the boys because SkankHunt42 is no more.
South Park is way funnier than Family Guy.
Also Mr. Garrison and Donald Trump are two SEPARATE people with completely different career backgrounds.
BeautyOfTheBeast
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby BeautyOfTheBeast » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:18 pm

Hailcoaster wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:44 pm
I feel like one of the most prominent aspects of this episode was the portrayal of the characters' psychology, the writing and the dialogue did a great job depicting how people get into toxic relationships in the first place, and why it is difficult for them to get away once they're in.

Kyle for instance, is portrayed as a caring and moral-ridden individual, that although rational, lets his emotions and sense of justice get involved in his course of action. He desired to intervene because he considered it to be the right thing to do, never once questioning his personal interest for Heidi until the girls pointed it out. While all the other kids aknowledge Cartman's demeanor towards Heidi, none of them are willing to get themselves involved in it, whereas Kyle has always been the one to confront Cartman's wrong doings and pursuit him, positioning himself as 'good' and Cartman as 'evil', dynamic that has ultimately served to feed both Cartman's enthusiasm to torture him, and Kyle's sense of selfrighteousness and tendency to see himself as a martyr, trait that he shares with Cartman, but as he stated, 'We all wrongly see ourselves as the victim sometimes, but Cartman sees himself as the victim ALL the time', the main difference being that Kyle is able to aknowledge his mistakes and learn from them, unlike Cartman.

To get some insight into Kyle's remark: 'In a way, I feel like we're all going out with Cartman right now' reflecting on how all of them are, at some degree, and specially Kyle, always been involved in a toxic relationship with Cartman's mind games. Kyle has been, for a long time now, Cartman's main sympathizer, he can't help but look out for his personal improvement, and often attempted to get him to do the right thing and gain counsciousness on his own warped mentality, desire that Cartman would not hesitate to take advantage of, tricking Kyle into commiting to a cause if he could profit from his support.

In this episode, Kyle appears to have come to the conclussion that Cartman is beyond help, and that neither he nor Heidi can do anything to change that, for the best thing they can do for him is not to feed his sociopathic needs, furthermore demonstrated by their encounter on the hallway, with Kyle continuously trying to reason with him and assure him it was all for his own good, Cartman making deaf ears to his claims, finally leaving Kyle no choice but to knock him out in self defense, who apologizes regretful.

Cartman, on the other side, is miserable with Heidi, but also without her. As I stated on the last thread concerning their relationship:
'He can't bring himself to end the relationship and thus giving Heidi freedom of choice, she's a property and so Cartman can't stand the idea of his belongings moving on to other people. Cartman thinks of Heidi as a tool that exists with the only purpose of being at his disposition to offer him constant attention and validation, nothing more, nothing less.

Simultaneously, Cartman can't stand Heidi, because she doesn't fit the description of Cartman's ideal image of her. Naturally, Heidi isn't the tool Cartman expects her to be, she is an human being with her own individual needs. Whereas Cartman looks for a relationship where he is the center of attention, never giving anything in return, and a partner willing to follow him blindly against all the odds, without him having to worry about losing their support; Heidi looks for a functional, healthy romantic relationship, were all the parties involved contribute their part. Cartman is unwilling to fulfill this role, because doing so would position him as an equal of Heidi's, which means, to him, degrade him from his high-entity status.'
Nearing the end Cartman has found a way of manipulating Heidi into believing she's in the relationship she craved for, and thus avoiding any sign of resistance from her. He has learned that if he wants to manipulate Heidi successfully, he needs to put a little effort on the relationship every now and then, offering her reassurance. This way, Cartman can act selfishly while at the same time 'rewarding' Heidi for her subservience, throwing away any doubt she might had in him. He fools her into believing his wrongdoings are common human flaws that need to exist in order to keep improving himself.

Heidi is portrayed as someone who desires to aid the needy, she cannot bring herself to refuse someone's cries for help, which is the main reason she continues to be stuck with Cartman and allows herself to be manipulated by him. He sees in Cartman someone who takes bad decisions, but is fundamentally kindhearted. Someone who is in need for her guidance. Even when ditching Kyle after being indoctrinated by Cartman, her kind nature is a definitive trait of her character. Cartman was persuasive enough to convince her of his beliefs, he made sure until the last moment that his ideas appeared to be reasonably fundamented. He told her what she wanted to hear when she was feeling the most guilty, deflecting the blame for the failure of their relationship unto Kyle instead, but reassuring her image of Kyle by telling her he hadn't been counscious of his actions. He convinced her of attributing her own supposed flaws ('being moody') to her ethnic background, and this way implying she has no control over ever improving herself, comforting her but making her feel helpess over her situation at the same time, this serves to Cartman as a mechanism to increase her emotional dependence to him, by making her feel he's the only one who will ever love her despite her imperfections.

Regarding Cartman's idea of Kyle, I feel like Cartman projects all of his own corruption unto Kyle. He subcounsciously thinks of Kyle as his equal, although he cannot recognize the corruption from within. Kyle's intentions are never pure in Cartman's mind, he must always be plotting something against him the same way he himself does to him. To him, Kyle's purpose in life is to get in Cartman's way. As the series progressed, we've seen Cartman gradually watering down his hostility towards Kyle in latter seasons the more time they spent together, and instead replacing it with an odd sense of familiarity and trust, until this point, Cartman's friendly demeanor towards Kyle that even manifested itself at one point earlier in the episode, takes a sudden turn the moment Cartman finds out he might have been responsible for his breakup with Heidi. Following this event, we see Cartman's hatred towards Kyle reach its peak when he goes batshit after his trippy jewish dream sequence, spewing all his resentments against Kyle in spite of the latter's attempts to excuse himself, Cartman feeling betrayed after letting himself 'fall into Kyle's claws' by allowing him the benefit of the doubt previously.

Having stated all this, I think Cartman has taken care of the problems he had with Heidi, and now that the challenge is over, the last scene leads me to believe he has shifted his interest from the pleasure he obtains from having domain over her, to the impact his behaviour towards her has on Kyle instead. He's using his influence on the people around Kyle to make them into proxys as a mean to inflict pain onto him. Heidi is no longer the tool, his entire relationship with her is now a tool on itself.

It was also interesting to see the conection between B plot and A plot relying on the parallel of the toxic relationship between Cartman, Kyle and Heidi, and that of politicians with their supporters, instead of having each storyline intersecting with the other, though I don't have a strong stand on the matter, since I'm for the most part ignorant concerning the USA political status.

I really enjoyed the execution of the humor, there were some great jokes, the animation team did an amazing job and overall I think this was a fantastic episode with a rather dark thematic.
Out of any post I've seen on this episode or any regarding the relationship between Heiman, yours is the one that seems to understand the plot of them the most. What a well written, insightful LAP. I wholeheartedly agree with you.

This episode was meant to be about more than just laughs. It was exploring a very dark, psychological part of humanity, the one that exists within Cartman and Heidi's relationship. Heidi is a clear abuse victim, being manipulated by Cartman, and now Kyle has been pulled into it trying to help her.

I'm glad you can see Heidi is clearly not acting herself here. More folks should stop and really look at the episodes with Cartman and Heidi as a whole, and think about how Cartman has always been like as a person. He's been able to manipulate people many times, even Kyle who arguably has the most distrust in him, and of course his mom. Cartman is sociopathic, and sexist and racist, but he can also be charming and charismatic. That's what makes him so dangerous to others. He was able to rally troops on more than one occassion to his side, in order to assassinate people.

Heidi needs to be free of Cartman, I hope she realizes that for good soon because you're right; she was just a shiny new toy for him, especially after his "friends" destroyed his technology, and now he's going to use their relationship as another tool. I don't think this is supposed to be seen as funny either. I think it's more supposed to be dark humor in some places, but overall this show is trying to give us a clear message about relationships like this.

As someone whose been in a relationship that was abusive, Heidi really speaks to me, and I am so horrified and upset to see anyone trashing her for how Cartman treats her. She's a wonderful person who found Cartman at a very low time in her life (common when someone ends up in an abusive relationship), and although she understands all the criticism about Cartman, that just made her more defensive when she's questioned, especially so soon afterward. I feel like SP is trying to show the audience how society treats abuse victims. The victim blaming they go through, and we see it with Heidi's girl friends as they question her intelligence and blame her for making the choices she did. Likewise, I see posts where people blame Heidi for the problems, when Heidi is not the issue here.

I went through it myself. I wanted to see the best in the person I was with, and so when I was questioned for it, even when I saw the bad, I ignored it. It's not Heidi being a bad person at all, but someone who is vulnerable and doesn't need to be told she's wrong or stupid at that point.

Because of it, she was pushed back into Cartman's arms, especially since he was able to successfully twist things to make it seem like Heidi was unknowingly being manipulated by Kyle, and that Kyle is the bad guy. It's not that Heidi is stupid or just as bad as Cartman; far from it. She's being brainwashed by him to see things the way he wants her to see it. And because she's so desperate to see the good in him, she'll believe him now.

I do hope and believe she will eventually realize this, and I don't think this is the last we'll see of this at all. Kyle will remain involved, he knows this isn't Heidi and the look Cartman gave him is basically telling us this is going to be continued. Kyle will hopefully help Heidi out of this cycle of abuse. I find it very sad, and I nearly cried because that's how much I feel for Heidi, that she's so deep into it now, she is being lead easily by Cartman.

I don't think I've felt so much for a character in this show until Heidi honestly.
Grim Dawn
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Grim Dawn » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:49 pm

I can't help but be really disappointed in this episode. I'm not certain as to whether or not Heidi is the one doubling down or South Park is doubling down on the Heidi/Cartman relationship storyline. It might have been redeemed somewhat if Heidi had remained with Kyle at the end of that tedious rerun of every other episode with Heidi included, and we had some real conflict in the next episode, but to end it by of all things convincing her to buy into antisemitism? That just felt rushed and weak, coupled with this episode's lack of great humor moments.
mo303564
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby mo303564 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:24 pm

Definitely one of the better ones this season. Funny, ruthless, and just....South Park!

Cartman is a manipulating bitch. But what else is new. Heidi is just under his control... and for the ride. She's tried to break it off, but for some reason, they need each other. I can't explain it. in some ways, I wish it didn't have to be this way. But there has to be more that needs to be written.

Loved the President Garrisson interaction. Loved having our Cartman back to being well....an idiot. As I said, I wish that Heidi didn't have to be part of this in terms of Cartman's senile rage against society but....it is what it is. It's not her fault. Or if it is it's because of the people surrounding her. I honestly feel bad for her Because she's not in a safe spot being controlled like this.
RTL: I love being a dick to people for no reason. It makes me feel better about how my mom smacks me around with a frozen T Bone steak.
MichaelTanzerCanada
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby MichaelTanzerCanada » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:28 pm

SouthAl93 wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:19 am
How come no one has said anything about if the girls made amends with all the boys yet after the reset of the Internet which supposedly put an end to the gender wars? Are the girls still against the boys or something? There are some couples that some people really need to know their fate about. I demand that the next episode, or the remain two Season 21 episodes after that to put an end to the gender wars once and for all because we need a proper conclusion to the gender wars and see all or most of the couples reconcile with each other. The girls have no reason to be mad at the boys because SkankHunt42 is no more.
Yeah I think you're definitely right about this....
Heiman forever! Favourite OTP since Season 20! <3
MichaelTanzerCanada
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby MichaelTanzerCanada » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:30 pm

JamesPolo wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:12 am
The episode was all about Cartman and Heidi’s dating. I know I was not sure if I wanted it anymore but over the last week it did make me want more. I really think that Heidi will be a big focus now in the show. She is in every new episode and I’d compare her to Butters as the new 5th friend. I wonder how ratings are doing because if their fine or up, I’d say that’s a good indicator that Heidi is working out. This may be a new age of South Park, will it be called the Heidi age?

The vegan joke I get now. I’d seen the second press image and didn’t know what beyond is, but they have that good in the produce aisle or something with burgers. I just forget like everything. I was happy they didn’t show Heidi real fat, but I think people could have handled it. It reminded me of when Butters ended up all fat and he needed a liposuction. Still it was somewhat funny to see her belly hurt. I guess the new gimmick is for Cartman to pick on Heidi all the time as she doesn’t get it like butters used to be.

I liked seeing Heidi angry like Carman gets and she was so at Kyle. I can’t really think that a girl can get angry as I find it too cute. I think some people would say she was real angry and has that side, but I just find it hot.

It was a fun, I guess a fourth wall break in a way, when Kyle said it felt like we all were going out with Cartman. It has felt like that as I do think of how Heidi is doing in the relationship, so it does feel like that some as I put myself in her shoes.

It was nice to see Mitch McConnell as he is new to South Park and I think also were Mike Pence and Paul Ryan. The episode had Mike Pence the real Vice President and so Jenner is probably out. Kind of gross that they were anal raped. I recently read of Charlie Sheen had raped a 13-year-old boy onset of a movie in the 80’s and so that scene felt brutal.

The member berries were shown, maybe we will see more? There was a hint of something to come with Garrison’s societal psychology statement and that he knows how to control people’s minds. Any guesses if we do see a little continuity of what the societal psychology is? I would think reinstating the member berries but what else?

People will be happy like South Al of the gender wars was mentioned and it was still on which got me. Had a nice sexist look inside vaginas joke too by Kyle.

I was hurt that Kyle found he liked Heidi and was prepared to continue watching as a Jew stole a true white person’s women. I can understand most men are dogs and if they hear how cool a girl is from one of their friends, they will try so hard to steal her and sleep with her too, I’ve seen it happen.

The Cartman making fun a Heidi for being fat was okay humor, but she didn’t show, and I was still kind of hurt that he would do that but maybe it is just a lover joking around think. It could be Cartman play fighting as a cute thing to do. It didn’t seem so bad to Heidi. The drums joke made it look like a gynecologist tool and I wasn’t sure what was happening. Weird as a couple of days ago I was web searching for porn like that.

Cartman at Token’s house was fun, and Token had dated Wendy, so it covered the bases of who the girls after a breakup rebound too. The burn the flag and riot jokes were okay. When Cartman found out about Heidi, he had an anger dream of rage of like Disney movies. I think I caught Dumbo and the Little Mermaid. Then Cartman tries to beat up Kyle which hurt as Cartman lost but later Heidi goes back to Cartman after a girl’s night out at Buca’s Italian restaurant. Buca’s is okay, some of the food tastes like Mexican food. It’s too expensive for me also and the drinks are not ones I like that much. It seems the other girls are happy single, but Heidi felt in her heart she was right for dating Cartman. I guess she believes in true love.

It was nice to see Heidi tell off Kyle and say she is Irish and hint that Kyle is a sneaky dirty Jew. It was that Cartman must have told her all the racist stuff he knows at the park. That part for me was so funny. I think we will have lots of Cartman/Heidi in the future now. There are a lot of possibilities with Heidi being racist and gaining other Cartman like qualities. I know I had mentioned it in the past and so I’m happy for the idea to be explored.

I’ll give the episode a 9/10. This episode reaffirmed Heiman is here to stay with fun future possibilities.
Well said enough! Double true indeed!
Heiman forever! Favourite OTP since Season 20! <3
JVM
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby JVM » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:47 am

So overall, I found this actually a really strong episode and appreciated its commitment to a single, overarching theme across both plotlines, allowing it to come together very neatly and cleverly. There is no massive conspiracy in the backdrop, nothing to threaten the fabric of society, no, this is an episode that is ultimately focused on the little interactions and relationships between some of the show’s memorable characters, and to make a rather simple satirical point about societal psychology.

A lot of fans would disagree with me, but I appreciate that the show has been willing to revisit the previous season’s themes on occasion. It was nice that this episode was able to use those elements to such great effect while still being a cohesive, standalone episode with its own story and themes. I know that this is far too gone now, but I still wish the show would be more willing to bring back elements from older seasons this way.

I would not say the episode isn’t without some flaws, but many of them are pervasive problems that have dogged the show for years and years in the first place, so it’s hard to hold them against only this episode.

Trivia/Notes:
- Heidi's wearing the same pajamas he's been wearing since way back in season 9‘s “Marjorine”.
- Cartman mentions ‘Beyond Arby’s when Heidi has stomach problems; he also used Arby’s for similar purposes in season 15‘s “Bass to Mouth”.
- Millie isn’t on screen when she talks, but the subs and her usual trademark southern accent seem to give it away.
- Kal/Courtney/Isla and Molly have some of their first lines in a long while here.
- Jenny Simons, as the previous season, seems to be out of favor with the popular girls again, as seems to be Esther and Powder, who were around them last season.
- I think I mentioned before, but you can now see the gated community walls around the Black Residence.
- Token’s Parents have finally settled this season on their newer designs, first introduced in season 15‘s “1%” but often forgotten.

---

I wrote out an extremely lengthy reply and SPS won't let me post it, keeps telling me I don't have permission.
Big-Will
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Big-Will » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:25 am

"Isla" I heard in the following episode, not before, so I don't know where that came from.
I don't know where "Courtney" came from.
Kal wears on orange sweater, not a red one, so she's neither Courtney nor Isla.
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Milo Vonnegut
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Milo Vonnegut » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:27 pm

I gotta cast some of the blame on the girls for ridiculing her back into Cartman's arms, much like how the hardcore liberals chastise potential-former-Trump-supporters back to Trump.
JVM
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Re: *2107: Doubling Down* Post-Air Discussion

Postby JVM » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:15 pm

Big-Will wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:25 am
"Isla" I heard in the following episode, not before, so I don't know where that came from.
I don't know where "Courtney" came from.
Kal wears on orange sweater, not a red one, so she's neither Courtney nor Isla.
As you've now covered, it was here at SPS wiki for a while. I'm not sure exactly when/where it showed up, but I remember being dumbfounded until hearing it in the episode. It's not even fanon, because I believe it came with the image upload. I always associated her with Kal because the hair is the same shape and similar color, despite the different outfit.

I'm mystified by 'Courtney' as well. I thought you started that one, but obviously not. :P

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