Should "under God" be removed from the Pledge?

A General discussion about everything other than South Park

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nojo
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Postby nojo » Sun May 06, 2007 2:47 am

The non-God pledge isn't that old itself -- it was written in 1892.

To sell flags.

Not quite a Hallmark Holiday, but same neighborhood.
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swellman7
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Postby swellman7 » Sun May 06, 2007 3:37 am

Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny wrote:
O'Brien wrote:Debating is only fun until it degenerates into a flame war that is. So far this thread has avoided that. :P



LOL, you mean it's lasted an entire two pages? :O

And, honestly, I think it's dead now. :)

I'm gonna start more soon. ^^

Possibly one on gay marriage... That'd be a fun one. And a steamed one.


Their already was a gay rights debate thread and it got locked. So I wouldn't suggest starting another one.
plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Sun May 06, 2007 3:42 am

swellman7 wrote:Their already was a gay rights debate thread and it got locked. So I wouldn't suggest starting another one.


yea, i strongly suggest that you do not make another one
ugogo_uswimswim
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Postby ugogo_uswimswim » Sun May 06, 2007 5:11 am

I don't f***ing care anymore. No matter what, people's beliefs aren't gong to change by words on currency or in a pledge. I just think they should stay for historical purposes. But who the f*** cares about history or intelleigence in this country anymore. Just as long as people have thier media centered magazines and some Taco Bell, thier okay.

Woah, I need sleep....and some goth music...
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O'Brien
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Postby O'Brien » Sun May 06, 2007 5:17 am

ugogo_uswimswim wrote:I just think they should stay for historical purposes.

With that reasoning, one could also argue to bring back the Confederate Flag for the whole South for historical purposes, or to keep the South Park flag intact in its original form. :roll:
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ugogo_uswimswim
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Postby ugogo_uswimswim » Sun May 06, 2007 5:34 am

O'Brien wrote:
ugogo_uswimswim wrote:I just think they should stay for historical purposes.

With that reasoning, one could also argue to bring back the Confederate Flag for the whole South for historical purposes, or to keep the South Park flag intact in its original form. :roll:


Uhg, another retaliation by South Park reasoning. Go get some origianal thoughts....

There is a fine line between free speech and offensive speech. The flag in that South Park episode was offensive and bringing back the southern flag would be offensive. Keeping "Under God" and "In God we trust"? I don't see why it would offend anybody. So what's wrong with keeping it? But, there is always going to be those angry little athiest who I'm sure, are gonna bitch that religion offends them somehow. Pft, whatever, like I care. Wow, what a mood I'm in...I just don't give a damn.
Art is what happens when you learn to DREAM!!! -Atlantis Squarepantis

The only good Slash is the one from Guns N' Roses.
Nommel
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Postby Nommel » Sun May 06, 2007 5:39 am

ugogo_uswimswim wrote:
O'Brien wrote:
ugogo_uswimswim wrote:I just think they should stay for historical purposes.

With that reasoning, one could also argue to bring back the Confederate Flag for the whole South for historical purposes, or to keep the South Park flag intact in its original form. :roll:


Uhg, another retaliation by South Park reasoning. Go get some origianal thoughts....

There is a fine line between free speech and offensive speech. The flag in that South Park episode was offensive and bringing back the southern flag would be offensive. Keeping "Under God" and "In God we trust"? I don't see why it would offend anybody. So what's wrong with keeping it? But, there is always going to be those angry little athiest who I'm sure, are gonna bitch that religion offends them somehow. Pft, whatever, like I care. Wow, what a mood I'm in...I just don't give a damn.


That was a very funny post :D
O'Brien
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Postby O'Brien » Sun May 06, 2007 5:43 am

ugogo_uswimswim wrote:Keeping "Under God" and "In God we trust"? I don't see why it would offend anybody..... But, there is always going to be those angry little athiest who I'm sure, are gonna bitch that religion offends them somehow.

They may not be offensive per say, but that fact alone doesn't mean they're somehow immune from being changed in the future. Perhaps in a 100 years, enough people will become atheist and question if it makes sense to change those slogans. For now though, atheists have the same right to complain as religious fundies who want all of America to become just like them.
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M00ndragon69
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Postby M00ndragon69 » Sun May 06, 2007 5:51 am

Why is "In God we trust" on money anyway? That is kinda f*cked up. I know Christians who don't really like it, because of the whole materialism association with money, and non Christians who don't like it because of the obviously, they feel it is one more way religion is pushed on them.
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Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny
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Postby Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny » Sun May 06, 2007 5:08 pm

M00ndragon69 wrote:Why is "In God we trust" on money anyway? That is kinda f*cked up. I know Christians who don't really like it, because of the whole materialism association with money, and non Christians who don't like it because of the obviously, they feel it is one more way religion is pushed on them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

Apparently, that was, to dollars, added 2 years after "Under God", in 1956.

"In God We Trust is also the official state motto of the state of Florida, and is found on the Seal of Florida. In God We Trust is also found on the flag of Georgia, as adopted by that state in first in 2001, and then on the newer flag adopted in 2003."

Actually, it says it was originally found on coins, since the Civil War.

Wikipedia wrote:The motto In God We Trust was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the American Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout Christians throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize God on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania, and read:


James Pollok, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia, 1861 wrote:Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins.
You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition.



Ah-hah!... Looky here...

Wikipedia wrote:A law was passed by the 84th United States Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956. The President approved a joint resolution declaring In God We Trust the national motto of the United States. Some allege that this decision was a reaction[citation needed] to Communism (which was commonly associated with atheism).
ugogo_uswimswim
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Postby ugogo_uswimswim » Sun May 06, 2007 5:35 pm

Nommel wrote:That was a very funny post :D


Are you being serious, or sarcastic, I can't always tell...
Art is what happens when you learn to DREAM!!! -Atlantis Squarepantis

The only good Slash is the one from Guns N' Roses.
plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Sun May 06, 2007 5:50 pm

O'Brien wrote:
ugogo_uswimswim wrote:I just think they should stay for historical purposes.

With that reasoning, one could also argue to bring back the Confederate Flag for the whole South for historical purposes, or to keep the South Park flag intact in its original form. :roll:


pitiful analogy, there is a huge difference between being a blatant proponent of racism and bigotry and saying "under god"

as for the confederate flag, its too early to have it for historical purposes. Eventually it will be ok, just like ancient spartan history, where they had much more slaves than citizens
O'Brien
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Postby O'Brien » Sun May 06, 2007 7:34 pm

plk12345 wrote:pitiful analogy, there is a huge difference between being a blatant proponent of racism and bigotry and saying "under god"

That difference could grow less in the future as more people become atheists. As the use of "Under God" and ""In God We Trust" becomes more questioned, the US government should be willing to consider change instead of listening only to Christian fundies.

as for the confederate flag, its too early to have it for historical purposes. Eventually it will be ok, just like ancient spartan history, where they had much more slaves than citizens

That reasoning doesn't work, as the Confederacy played a more important role in our history compared to Sparta. As long as the USA stands and our black population resides in America, the Confederate flag will always serve as a symbol of both the enslavement of blacks and of rebellion aganist the US. Let's also not forget the swastika, will despite its non-Nazi origins will now always be associated with Nazism and the Holocaust. Sparta as a state however doesn't exist anymore, and is not as recognized as either the Confederacy, Nazi Germany, or even Athens. Since Sparta's impact on history seems less to the common person, one could get away with treating Sparta as "acceptable" but the same can't be said for the Confederacy.
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M00ndragon69
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Postby M00ndragon69 » Sun May 06, 2007 7:55 pm

Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny wrote:
M00ndragon69 wrote:Why is "In God we trust" on money anyway? That is kinda f*cked up. I know Christians who don't really like it, because of the whole materialism association with money, and non Christians who don't like it because of the obviously, they feel it is one more way religion is pushed on them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

Apparently, that was, to dollars, added 2 years after "Under God", in 1956.

"In God We Trust is also the official state motto of the state of Florida, and is found on the Seal of Florida. In God We Trust is also found on the flag of Georgia, as adopted by that state in first in 2001, and then on the newer flag adopted in 2003."

Actually, it says it was originally found on coins, since the Civil War.

Wikipedia wrote:The motto In God We Trust was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the American Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout Christians throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize God on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania, and read:


James Pollok, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia, 1861 wrote:Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins.
You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition.



Ah-hah!... Looky here...

Wikipedia wrote:A law was passed by the 84th United States Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956. The President approved a joint resolution declaring In God We Trust the national motto of the United States. Some allege that this decision was a reaction[citation needed] to Communism (which was commonly associated with atheism).



LOL..So KTS Is a Communist? LOL. Well, the civil war and the cold war are over, so there isn't really a point for it anymore. Sure, adding "In God We Trust" to our currency is part of our history, but over the years there have been alot of changes in American Currency, I know, because my Dad was into coin collecting..Anyway, the people who care about that history can perserve it so, it isn't forgotten..
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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Sun May 06, 2007 8:05 pm

O'Brien wrote:
plk12345 wrote:pitiful analogy, there is a huge difference between being a blatant proponent of racism and bigotry and saying "under god"

That difference could grow less in the future as more people become atheists. As the use of "Under God" and ""In God We Trust" becomes more questioned, the US government should be willing to consider change instead of listening only to Christian fundies.

as for the confederate flag, its too early to have it for historical purposes. Eventually it will be ok, just like ancient spartan history, where they had much more slaves than citizens

That reasoning doesn't work, as the Confederacy played a more important role in our history compared to Sparta. As long as the USA stands and our black population resides in America, the Confederate flag will always serve as a symbol of both the enslavement of blacks and of rebellion aganist the US. Let's also not forget the swastika, will despite its non-Nazi origins will now always be associated with Nazism and the Holocaust. Sparta as a state however doesn't exist anymore, and is not as recognized as either the Confederacy, Nazi Germany, or even Athens. Since Sparta's impact on history seems less to the common person, one could get away with treating Sparta as "acceptable" but the same can't be said for the Confederacy.


92% of america claim they believe in god
i personally think this should blow the whole argument out of the water...

like i said, over time, as the emotions disappear and racism dies out, the confederate flag will be ok. Are we forgetting that thomas jefferson also owned, bred and sold slaves? Over time, racism will die out and emotions will die out.

Ancient sparta changed the whole course of human history, by the way...

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