Should "under God" be removed from the Pledge?

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O'Brien
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Postby O'Brien » Sat May 05, 2007 4:25 am

EvanNJames wrote:This country was founded under a certain background, and if you don't believe in that religion, that's fine.

This selection of Founding Father quotes beg to differ: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=12272.
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Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny
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Postby Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny » Sat May 05, 2007 4:43 am

plk12345 wrote:
Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny wrote:
swellman7 wrote:I don't think it should be removed. It does promote religoun, but it's not like you're forced to say it. Therefore I think that it's fine that it stays in.


But it does show favor over one religion... well not quite one, but several. And it shows favor for religion over non-religion, which is also supposed to be a rule.

Whether it hurts or not, the government should not be able to contradict itself. It always starts with something small.


it does not favor a religion

most dictionaries will define god something along these lines:

the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and
omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the
universe


Therefore it is favoring religion over atheism. Not to mention, God is capitalized, implying it is THE God, named God, so it would basically have to be Christianity, Judaism, and a few Pagan religions.

And the founding fathers did not found the country under Christianity! They're the ones who put an end to all the religious laws and such, I think. I'll admit, I'm not big on history.

Still, that's just my opinion.
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Postby O'Brien » Sat May 05, 2007 5:03 am

Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny wrote:Therefore it is favoring religion over atheism. Not to mention, God is capitalized, implying it is THE God, named God, so it would basically have to be Christianity, Judaism, and a few Pagan religions.

You must admit though that back in the old days, people didn't know for sure how the Earth was created. Therefore for the Founder Fathers, it would be far more convientent for them to refer to the Creator instead of using undeveloped science. The Founders were not interested in promoting science or religion; they were busy developing a country. Therefore any Creator references shouldn't seriously imply America was fundenmentaly based off Christianity; it was just treated as common knowledge back then.
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M00ndragon69
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Postby M00ndragon69 » Sat May 05, 2007 6:41 am

You know something? I remember back when I was in kindergarten, around my first day of school, and I remember us learning the pledge. Even then, I didn't really understand why we did it, and I still don't see the point of making school children conduct the ritual of saying the pledge every morning..No, I am not being unAmerican, I just don't see a point in making kids say it at all, except as a form of brainwashing them in to how they are "suppost" to think about the flag..Like with religion, and everything to do with politics, kids should grow up and learn for themselves, and then decide what they believe on their own. They shouldn't be taught what their beliefs are suppost to be when they are too young to know that they have a choice.

As for the people on both sides of this debate who feel really strongly about it, well why are you making it into a big deal. For the people who want it removed, I am not Christian and I can ignore it..For the people who make a huge deal of leaving "under God" in, well, if it is ever taken out, is that really going to destroy your faith? Basically, I think the people on both sides who are making the biggest deal about this could better spend their energy and time on something else.
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Big-Will
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Postby Big-Will » Sat May 05, 2007 10:42 am

They should, really, and they should remove "In God We Trust" from all currency as well. The nation is one under secularism, not under any one religion, not under religion at all.
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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Sat May 05, 2007 2:43 pm

it would be a completely different situation if they had written
"under our lord jesus christ" or something

i don't see the big deal, its a stupid f*cking phrase. I really couldn't care less if it were never written

oh and btw, i think its mostly the anti theists who want this removed, im not sure if that many religious folk have complained
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Postby ShaneHaughey » Sat May 05, 2007 10:28 pm

I don't care, but it seems to be a waste of time to even discuss it. I loved saying the pledge, but most kids I know/knew didn't say it or put any thought into what they were saying. A little athiest kid raised by an athiest family isn't going to have her world rocked by saying God onces in a blue moon. If the athiest family is that afraid of having questions asked about them, then pity to them. Same goes for a religious family; if it's foundations are going to be challenged by having it removed, then their faith is shallow at best.

I do, however, understand where the extremists on both sides are coming from; athiests are worried that their kids will somehow be tainted by mentions of religion that they don't agree with, religious people are worried that the symbols of religion that remain common in American society are being stripped away and will eventually writher and die. Both sides are wrong and need to be slapped, but I understand them. My faith is both strong and I have common sense, so this neither shakes my faith nor does it deserve a long diatribe like the one I'm writing now.

Now, should it ever have been added? No. But, does it matter in this day and age? No. Also, Allah translates to English as God, so that also joins the ranks of the previous mentioned religions. Under God was added to separate us from godless communists, but it isn't a big damned deal now. You an say the pledge, you can not say it. You can omit words, one kid even changed words. Just don't expect my children to be forced to commit to either extreme.
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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Sat May 05, 2007 10:38 pm

no need for a discussion

its a stupid f*cking phrase, no one even says the pledge anyway
such a waste of time
Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny
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Postby Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny » Sat May 05, 2007 11:04 pm

Sorry for wanting to make a debate thread. :x
angeldeb82
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Postby angeldeb82 » Sat May 05, 2007 11:19 pm

angeldeb82 wrote:It's just like replacing the word "States" in "United States of America" with what Zacarias Moussaoui calls "United Sodom of America" or "United Satan of America"! Heck, it's also like replacing the word "United" with "Unconscious States of America"! :cartmanlaugh: :cartmanlaugh: :cartmanlaugh: :cartmanlaugh: :cartmanlaugh:


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Cold Machine
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Postby Cold Machine » Sun May 06, 2007 1:43 am

I'd like to mention that in my opinion it should be removed.

Of course, I'd also like to mention that it seems this issue has been blown up when the average American really doesn't care. :roll:
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Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny
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Postby Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny » Sun May 06, 2007 2:01 am

Cold Machine wrote:I'd like to mention that in my opinion it should be removed.

Of course, I'd also like to mention that it seems this issue has been blown up when the average American really doesn't care. :roll:


Yes, but debating is fun.
Cold Machine
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Postby Cold Machine » Sun May 06, 2007 2:07 am

Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny wrote:Yes, but debating is fun.


Quite. I was only pointing out that the issue seems to have gathered more steam than it probably should have. Or maybe not. I'd rather be debating this then some bit of worthless celebrity gossip.
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O'Brien
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Postby O'Brien » Sun May 06, 2007 2:09 am

Debating is only fun until it degenerates into a flame war that is. So far this thread has avoided that. :P
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Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny
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Postby Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny » Sun May 06, 2007 2:41 am

O'Brien wrote:Debating is only fun until it degenerates into a flame war that is. So far this thread has avoided that. :P



LOL, you mean it's lasted an entire two pages? :O

And, honestly, I think it's dead now. :)

I'm gonna start more soon. ^^

Possibly one on gay marriage... That'd be a fun one. And a steamed one.

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