Should "under God" be removed from the Pledge?

A General discussion about everything other than South Park

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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Sun May 06, 2007 8:05 pm

O'Brien wrote:
plk12345 wrote:pitiful analogy, there is a huge difference between being a blatant proponent of racism and bigotry and saying "under god"

That difference could grow less in the future as more people become atheists. As the use of "Under God" and ""In God We Trust" becomes more questioned, the US government should be willing to consider change instead of listening only to Christian fundies.

as for the confederate flag, its too early to have it for historical purposes. Eventually it will be ok, just like ancient spartan history, where they had much more slaves than citizens

That reasoning doesn't work, as the Confederacy played a more important role in our history compared to Sparta. As long as the USA stands and our black population resides in America, the Confederate flag will always serve as a symbol of both the enslavement of blacks and of rebellion aganist the US. Let's also not forget the swastika, will despite its non-Nazi origins will now always be associated with Nazism and the Holocaust. Sparta as a state however doesn't exist anymore, and is not as recognized as either the Confederacy, Nazi Germany, or even Athens. Since Sparta's impact on history seems less to the common person, one could get away with treating Sparta as "acceptable" but the same can't be said for the Confederacy.


92% of america claim they believe in god
i personally think this should blow the whole argument out of the water...

like i said, over time, as the emotions disappear and racism dies out, the confederate flag will be ok. Are we forgetting that thomas jefferson also owned, bred and sold slaves? Over time, racism will die out and emotions will die out.

Ancient sparta changed the whole course of human history, by the way...
O'Brien
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Postby O'Brien » Sun May 06, 2007 8:27 pm

plk12345 wrote:92% of america claim they believe in god

Harris Poll says only 73% as of 2006: http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=707. Next time, try not to conjure up a number from Fox News.

ike i said, over time, as the emotions disappear and racism dies out, the confederate flag will be ok. Are we forgetting that thomas jefferson also owned, bred and sold slaves? Over time, racism will die out and emotions will die out.

The effects of racism will NEVER die out as long as there is an African-American population in the US. Like it or not, the Confederate flag will always serve as a visual reminder of slavery in the South. Any new efforts to restore the Confederate flag in an official capicity will beyond all doubt stir up more emotions amongst a group of people who did not prosper at all in the Old South.

As for the Thomas Jefferson example, that is a red herring. While Jefferson is associated with much more things than slavery, all that the Confederate flag can represent is slavery and seperatism from the US. Confederate imagery simply has no redeeming value for modern US society.

Ancient sparta changed the whole course of human history, by the way...

How so? Do you have proof that the Persians would have somehow destroyed all traces of democracy if they have managed to conquer Greece? :roll:
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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Sun May 06, 2007 9:53 pm

O'Brien wrote:=
Harris Poll says only 73% as of 2006: http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=707.


touché

take a look at this
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/06/29/poll.pledge
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177355,00.html
http://www.undergodprocon.org/pop/ReligSurvey.htm

i think amercia's position on the issue is quite clear

O'Brien wrote:Like it or not, the Confederate flag will always serve as a visual reminder of slavery in the South.

As for the Thomas Jefferson example, that is a red herring. While Jefferson is associated with much more things than slavery, all that the Confederate flag can represent is slavery and seperatism from the US. Confederate imagery simply has no redeeming value for modern US society.

Ancient sparta changed the whole course of human history, by the way...

How so? Do you have proof that the Persians would have somehow destroyed all traces of democracy if they have managed to conquer Greece? :roll:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Displaying_the_flag
nope, it can mean more than just slavery and racism. I live in the northeast, and my parents came here from greece in the 70's, so i really don't know a lot about what they mean by their "haritage", but i can definitely relate. The ancient greeks did completely change the course of human history. I see no problem with embracing my heritage...

it might be too early for confederate flags right now, but over a little time it can come to mean something other than racism and bigotry
Last edited by plk12345 on Sun May 06, 2007 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
swellman7
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Postby swellman7 » Sun May 06, 2007 10:00 pm

^ None of those links work.
plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Sun May 06, 2007 10:18 pm

swellman7 wrote:^ None of those links work.


thanx
O'Brien
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Postby O'Brien » Sun May 06, 2007 10:37 pm

plk12345 wrote:i think amercia's position on the issue is quite clear

Only for now; the issue will be sure to flare up again in the future as less people choose to believe in God.

nope, it can mean more than just slavery and racism.

Only for Southerners who still find ways to legitimize their ancestor's failed secession from the Union. The fact of the matter is that the South made a poor decision in forming the Confederacy so they can protect their way of life (ie. slavery), and the Confederate flag is a direct product of that poor decision. If the South wants their own symbol, they could merely make a new one that brings up no connotations with the CSA and slavery at all.

I live in the northeast, and my parents came here from greece in the 70's, so i really don't know a lot about what they mean by their "haritage", but i can definitely relate.

The CSA's illegitimate heritage was entirely based on preserving their slavery-based economy. Just because someone expresses pride in old ways doesn't automatically legitimize their beliefs if they are inherently flawed.

it might be too early for confederate flags right now, but over a little time it can come to mean something other than racism and bigotry

Yet CSA flags will never be rid of their racist and separatist connotations. Would you say the same for Nazi emblems?
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Kyle the Skeptic
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Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Sun May 06, 2007 11:59 pm

The pledge issue isn't even an issue as far as I'm concerned. It's a stupid little nitpick that doesn't have any effect on people's lives one way or another. I couldn't care less if they left it, removed it, or changed it to read "under imaginary bearded sky daddy." But if it's about historicity, then they should simply revert to the pledge as it was originally written.

I think efforts would be better spent working against cases in which religion is actually abused to influence the law and the workings of government.
plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Mon May 07, 2007 1:05 am

O'Brien wrote:
plk12345 wrote:i think amercia's position on the issue is quite clear

Only for now; the issue will be sure to flare up again in the future as less people choose to believe in God.

nope, it can mean more than just slavery and racism.

Only for Southerners who still find ways to legitimize their ancestor's failed secession from the Union. The fact of the matter is that the South made a poor decision in forming the Confederacy so they can protect their way of life (ie. slavery), and the Confederate flag is a direct product of that poor decision. If the South wants their own symbol, they could merely make a new one that brings up no connotations with the CSA and slavery at all.

I live in the northeast, and my parents came here from greece in the 70's, so i really don't know a lot about what they mean by their "haritage", but i can definitely relate.

The CSA's illegitimate heritage was entirely based on preserving their slavery-based economy. Just because someone expresses pride in old ways doesn't automatically legitimize their beliefs if they are inherently flawed.

it might be too early for confederate flags right now, but over a little time it can come to mean something other than racism and bigotry

Yet CSA flags will never be rid of their racist and separatist connotations. Would you say the same for Nazi emblems?


you know what? You are absolutely right about this. The majority of the people i see with csa flags are f*cking white trash rednecks...

O'Brien wrote:
plk12345 wrote:i think amercia's position on the issue is quite clear

Only for now; the issue will be sure to flare up again in the future as less people choose to believe in God.


fine,if the majority of americans decide to take the line away, take it

that is never going to happen though
triplemultiplex
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Postby triplemultiplex » Mon May 07, 2007 9:51 pm

The whole idea of a pledge of alliegence seems kind of ridiculous to me to begin with. The idea that I need to announce my alliegence to this country is insulting. It implies that I might not be allied with my country if I don't recite this pledge. I don't think any other democracies have a "pledge of alliegence". Sure they'll have nationalistic/patriotic songs & poems, but nothing like an official pledge. The only other counties that do that are dictatorships where not announcing your alliegence to your country's leadership will land your ass in prison.


As for "In God We Trust" on money, I don't understand how religious people could not be seriously offended by that. It reeks of that story from the New Testament about Jesus and the money changers. Or even worse, it could be interpreted as deifying money. Associating God with money was a big no-no for the ol' J-dog.

But both are just pointless wedge issues used by two extremes to "prove" that someone is either forcing religion on them or trying to destroy their religion.
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Kyle the Skeptic
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Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Tue May 08, 2007 1:07 am

I just felt like adding:

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”
--Mt 22:21, KJV
M00ndragon69
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Postby M00ndragon69 » Tue May 08, 2007 8:17 am

triplemultiplex wrote:The whole idea of a pledge of alliegence seems kind of ridiculous to me to begin with. The idea that I need to announce my alliegence to this country is insulting. It implies that I might not be allied with my country if I don't recite this pledge. I don't think any other democracies have a "pledge of alliegence". Sure they'll have nationalistic/patriotic songs & poems, but nothing like an official pledge. The only other counties that do that are dictatorships where not announcing your alliegence to your country's leadership will land your ass in prison.


As for "In God We Trust" on money, I don't understand how religious people could not be seriously offended by that. It reeks of that story from the New Testament about Jesus and the money changers. Or even worse, it could be interpreted as deifying money. Associating God with money was a big no-no for the ol' J-dog.

But both are just pointless wedge issues used by two extremes to "prove" that someone is either forcing religion on them or trying to destroy their religion.


Yep, the phrase " The Almighty Dollar" isn't around for nothing.
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Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny
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Postby Mr_Jefferson_killed_Kenny » Fri May 11, 2007 9:48 pm

I don't see why it matters how many people believe in God. :S

We still have separation of church and state, and nothing should be able to change that...
plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Fri May 11, 2007 9:53 pm

Kyle the Skeptic wrote:I just felt like adding:

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”
--Mt 22:21, KJV


good for you
SuperMaids
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Postby SuperMaids » Fri May 11, 2007 10:51 pm

I couldn't care less what it says on the dollar, but as it's always said the same thing (as far as i know, i'm not a history major or anything) that it shouldn't be removed because, for one thing, changing the currency would be a waste of tax-payers money and government time that could be spent on REAL ISSUES.
It's when athiests start arguing about tiny things like this, as if they're the most important isuess in this less than perfect world, that i start to find myself hating them as much as the radical rightwingers who refuse to admit that gravity, much less evolution, exists because it ain't in the bible.
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O'Brien
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Postby O'Brien » Sat May 12, 2007 12:51 am

SuperMaids wrote:It's when athiests start arguing about tiny things like this, as if they're the most important isuess in this less than perfect world, that i start to find myself hating them as much as the radical rightwingers who refuse to admit that gravity, much less evolution, exists because it ain't in the bible.

Fact of life: nearly all people are inclined to complain about something when given the opportunity. Gamers whine and bitch when their anticipated games get delayed, congressmen waste time over how every single word in a bill is placed, and I just can't stand our dog's obsessive licking habits. Just because people might complain about trival issues doesn't necessarily imply these issues are the most important to them, so I'd think twice before hating people over what they choose to debate.

Afterall, will our debates influence public policy at all? :lol:
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