matt, trey and socialized medicine

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raducucosmin
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matt, trey and socialized medicine

Postby raducucosmin » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:39 pm

i'm posting this thread because i'm simply curious about this subject. i'm not from the US and i would really like to know what americans, and not only, think about it. is it a good thing? is it a bad thing? i've read several articles on it over the internet, but they all seem to have an agenda. what caught my attention was an article in The Rolling Stone magazine where it was stated that Matt is against socialized medicine. why is that? are the guys both against it? it seems that some kind of socilized medicine works fine in other countries but would it fit in America?
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Cartman's Top Enemy
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Postby Cartman's Top Enemy » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:28 pm

To oversimplify it, Matt and other right-wingers are against it because, in their mind, it's more taxes. Single payer health care would fit, but we have too many idealogues and pocket liners to make it possible.
His attack, his goading and his quick departure from the discussion...clearly demonstrates that [Mr.Hat_DX27], like Stovepipe_Jam, Killahertz9, TheTowlieConnection and others before him, has no integrity.
soulsforsale5s
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Postby soulsforsale5s » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:30 pm

You want to know how well socialized health care would work? Go into the DMV, or the Social Security office, or the Post office, or an Amtrack train. It'll give you an idea of how well the government runs its services.
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Postby triplemultiplex » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:18 pm

soulsforsale5s wrote:You want to know how well socialized health care would work? Go into the DMV, or the Social Security office, or the Post office, or an Amtrack train. It'll give you an idea of how well the government runs its services.


Or go to Canada, all of western Europe, Japan, Australia...
I'm not going to claim it's without problems, but people seem to live longer in all of those countries for some reason. It's not impossible to have a government entity run by competent people who are held accountable for thier performance.


Stone & Parker might be against it because of their libertarian leanings. Universal health care would run against the libertarian fantasy of small government.
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Postby Big-Will » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:20 pm

Socialized medicine and the free market don't mix very well. If you want the best medical care, you want to go where it's available, and those places are very competitive about their medical care. That means getting faster service for a price. With socialized medicine, it doesn't matter how long it takes for you to get medical care, so you could be in need for months before someone comes around to treat you, and the medical care you get may not be all that great, all because the competitive incentive isn't there. And if the government has to pay for all our medical care, then everyone, even the poor, will feel it in higher taxes, which conservatives and libertarians don't want - higher taxes lead to depressed economies.
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Postby Just_Jackie » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:31 pm

People need to keep in mind that the US does kinda employ a small version of socialized medicine in the form of VA hospitals for veterans. They are government run hospitals and to be blunt, they are run like sh*t. I've seen it as my uncle Ronnie is a veteran! I don't want my healthcare run like that.

Also, all these people who talk about so called "free" health care forget to talk about the HUGE taxes involved. France is currently in a 15 BILLION...yes...BILLION dollar debt because of their healthcare system. This is besides the fact that the French citizens pay something like 21% of their income in "payroll" and "income" taxes before they even get to take any of it home! So, a single parent with two kids who is making something like $6 an hour would have almost a fourth of their paycheck taken from them before they even get to buy food, clothes etc. Then, when they buy that stuff they are going to get hit with another HUGE tax in the form of their sales tax. In some Canadian providences, as I understand it (as an American I may be wrong) they pay two sales taxes. A national one and one to the providence in which they live. All that taxation leaves a lot of people so broke they have to go on government assistance to survive! It's a cycle!
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Postby Cartman's Top Enemy » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:15 pm

soulsforsale5s wrote:You want to know how well socialized health care would work? Go into the DMV, or the Social Security office, or the Post office, or an Amtrack [sic] train. It'll give you an idea of how well the government runs its services.


How old is that horse you trotted in? :D

Yeah, whenever the goverment is involved, you can guarantee disaster: The police department, the fire companies, the local libraries, the military, the Interstate Highway System, landing on the moon--absolute failures!

Also, have you been to a doctor lately? If you have insurance, you already fill out tons of paperwork and deal with red tape.

A free-market based health system just dosen't work and never has.
His attack, his goading and his quick departure from the discussion...clearly demonstrates that [Mr.Hat_DX27], like Stovepipe_Jam, Killahertz9, TheTowlieConnection and others before him, has no integrity.
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Postby soulsforsale5s » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:04 pm

I'm not saying our health care system is perfect, in fact it needs to have a massive overhaul. But that other post is right, look at the VA system. That's socialized medicine, and it's a disaster. Why? Because government can't run large scale programs efficantly. Again, Medicare, Social Security, Amtrack, the Post Office, NASA...all disasters! Remember what Thomas Jefferson said, government is best when it governs least.

Also, to dispose of your examples:
Fire departments, police departments, libraries...these are all run by local government. Socialized medicine would be run by the federal government. Also, the Pentagon (the military) is notoriously inefficent, because it is burdened with so much red tape. Did you know that our troops in Iraq and Afganistan have to get permission from the higher-ups to engage the enemy unless they've been engaged first? And by the time permission comes, the enemy is gone. Our soldiers have to be shot at before they can shoot!
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Postby soulsforsale5s » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:13 pm

Also, triplemultiplex...I don't think you caught my sarcasm.
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Postby Big-Will » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:23 pm

[quote="Cartman's Top Enemy":913e6]landing on the moon[/quote:913e6]
Why aren't we doing that at least once a year these days?
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Just_Jackie
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Postby Just_Jackie » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:31 pm

Big-Will wrote:
Cartman's Top Enemy wrote:landing on the moon

Why aren't we doing that at least once a year these days?


:cartmansmirk: hehe

And it's worth pointing out that the person who pointed out the police, fireman situation was right as they are run by local government. And as far as NASA is conerned...if you this NASA is a great organization try talking to the families of the Columbia disaster.
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Postby Cold Machine » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:43 pm

Matt and Trey's stance on universal healthcare is probably along the lines of "I've got mine, f*ck you."

Just a guess, though.
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raducucosmin
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Postby raducucosmin » Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:22 pm

yeah. it could be that they don't want more taxes, or that they are happy with the fact that regardless of the medical care they have they can pay for excellent medical services. the fact of the matter is that it seems american health care has it's own purpose which doesn't look like it is the best interest of the patient. or am I wrong? i get most of my info from documentaries, articles and reports so i may be mislead. i also have a couple of friends that are US residents at this time and they aren't sure yet what to think about health care in America. but i can at least tell you this. in my country for instance we still have the medical system in the hands of the government. and it sucks balls for various reasons. 1. medical staff is highly under payed. 2. sometimes even when you give them gifts or bribes they still don't give a f*ck. 3. a whole lot of ignorance is involved (on the part of medical employees, patients and state alike). we have some private clinics, hospitals and a lot o private practices but on the other hand if we had all private med care then at the costs of it today many people wouldn't be able to afford it.
just so i get it straight, we're not poor in Romania, many are, but most live decent lives. and soon after a number of years in the european union our health care will probably be private, with inssurance comp running the show. i'm worried about the outcome of this process. i mean, will i have, in case of an accident, to be moved from one facilty to another just because not both of them are partners with my inssurance company? will they be able to deny me surgery that i need just because they don't want to pay for it. and another thing: as i said in Romania the problem with government medical care is the lack of funds more than government management. i would assume that since USA is one if not the most wealthy country in the world it would be able to properly fund health care and to hire the best men to do the managing part.
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Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:08 am

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but there is a difference between UHC and socialized medicine in the truest sense of the word. Opponents of socialized medicine don't want health care to be run entirely (as in 100%) by the government, they don't want the standard of care to be lowered for everyone, and they don't want to have to deal with the potential delays for procedures that may result from government-run healthcare. There's also the issue of taxes, as it has already been pointed out. Even if one were to roll back Bush's incredibly idiotic tax cuts all the way back to the way things were when Clinton left office (which should still be done regardless) there still would not be enough to guarantee health coverage for every US citizen.

On the other hand, it's likely possible to implement UHC without literally socializing everything. For starters, the government wastes a lot of taxpayer money as it is, and needless to say, much of that could go into health care. It would not be a completely altrustic form of government spending either, it would be a sound investment. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of productivity are lost every year in the US economy due to health related problems. There are approximately 44 million uninsured US citizens right now, and all that would need to be done would be to find some way to cover them.

Neglecting to do anything about the current health care system would be tantamount to using illnesses to punish poor people for being poor.
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Postby HellStrykeXL » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:24 am

Did you know that our troops in Iraq and Afganistan have to get permission from the higher-ups to engage the enemy unless they've been engaged first? And by the time permission comes, the enemy is gone. Our soldiers have to be shot at before they can shoot!


Boy does that rule piss me off. They can launch mortar after mortar until we get approval. :x
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