Day without an immigrant.

A General discussion about everything other than South Park

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albino.black.sheep
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:36 pm

Postby albino.black.sheep » Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:41 am

[quote="Kyle the Skeptic":01408]Hmm, another discussion I should probably know better than to get involved in, but can't help it because I do have something to say about it. Illegal immigration is most likely yet another of the many alarmist issues that people get their panties into a bunch over. Illegals are fallaciously blamed for everything, and I mean [i:01408]everything[/i:01408] bad that goes on, including unemployment, crime, drugs, health care costs, terrorism, you name it.[/quote:01408]

That's also true of Indian, Pakistani, Polish, Turkish, Algerian and Portugese immigrants to the UK.

Except the Daily Mail usually holds them responsible for eating British children.

Mmmm... this 3 year-old needs Worcestershire Sauce.
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SuperMaids
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:35 am

Postby SuperMaids » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:45 am

Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, but my oppinion on this subject NEEDS to get out of my head or I'll literally explode.
KTS wrote: Illegals are fallaciously blamed for everything, and I mean everything bad that goes on, including unemployment, crime, drugs, health care costs, terrorism, you name it

Illegals are blamed because they're an easy target. It's nothing new, and happened all the time in every wave of American Immigration, from the Irish in the 19th centure who got blamed for crime to the Italians at the turn of the 20th Century who were called for their crime, to the Germans before the USA joined the First Great war (more understandable) to the Eastern Europeans in the earlt 20's who were blamed for any and all acts of commie terror, even when they had proof it wasn't them! so nothing's changed much...
Unfortunately, they do indulge in many of the pursuits the media lables them with, though this is usually a problem with the US imigration system (which favours illegals as many can't cross legally) and not a problem with the immigrants; they don't eat too many babbies where I live thankfully.
Drugs are often taken by immigrants because they can’t achieve the ‘American Dream’ they came for, staying in drug attracting poverty for their whole lives, and not being able to educate their kids to college level thanks to the pay for an education system in the USA, leading to drug proliferation.
The illegals are only unemployed because they can't get legal work in America; it's not like the USA has the world's best benefit system for them to scrounge off anyway. That's why they don't really cost your healthcare anything (unlike in England, where our socialised system is stolen from us by the poor of the world).
KTS wrote: Undocumented workers are by now too thoroughly integrated into the US economy; attempting to remove them all is not a realistic or economically feasible solution

Keeping this number of employed people below the poliec's radar level and out of the government's supervision isn't a feasable option either; the government needs to change it's system or die from a flood of workers. Looking at the coming recession, I'd say the latter's more probable.
When it comes to sollutions to the US biggest real problem, I have many;
As anyone who knows the history of ghettos will attest, segregated groups often turn to crime to protect themselves from their enemies (which they often have in spades despite their poverty) in a society who’s police are against them. As the
Hispanics can’t integrate at all without learning English, massive ghettos in America are a given unless someone can either stop illegals (impossible and destructive to America) or can subsidise English classes for them, to help them integrate and get jobs.
Green cards should be easier to get, so people don’t need to cross the boarder illegally; maybe scrap the ban on those with non-violent criminal records, and certainly stop the ban on uneducated Mexicans freely immigrating.
In fact, it’d be in both nation’s best interests to ban the intelligent, educated and skilled people from emigrating from Mexico to the USA, as it’s the lack of these good workers that’s stopping Mexico from becoming such a rich nation that the POVs wouldn’t have any incentive to cross over to the other side of the national barrier. If America invested in Mexico, a beautiful relationship could bloom between the countries, with trade and immigration easing over time as in the EU.

KTS wrote:It's a 2,000 mile border, and they want to cover it with a 700 mile fence that anyone with a pair of wire cutters could get through in minutes

Ever heard how many millions of slaves were required to build the Great Wall of China, and how much moiney it wasted even with unpaid labour and the bones of the dead to use as morter? Well that's going to be nothing compared with the effort Bush'll need to build his great wall of Mexico.
The Great wall needed high security guards to dtop them damn mongolians, and this wall'll need security to stop them damn Mexicans. A lot of security. That costs a hella lot of money. America couldn't afford to have patrolls of every stratch of boarder, it'd bring down the... oh wait, you already have them. Never mind :shock:
Kyle the Skeptic
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:06 pm

Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:18 pm

In fact, it’d be in both nation’s best interests to ban the intelligent, educated and skilled people from emigrating from Mexico to the USA, as it’s the lack of these good workers that’s stopping Mexico from becoming such a rich nation that the POVs wouldn’t have any incentive to cross over to the other side of the national barrier. If America invested in Mexico, a beautiful relationship could bloom between the countries, with trade and immigration easing over time as in the EU.

To further. The big problem with the economy in Mexico is that most of the wealth is consolidated in the hands of the very few. Only a small number of people control all the wealth and own all the land and resources. The rich keep getting richer, and the poor get poorer. In order to do what you're suggesting, which is a good idea mind you, this problem would also have to be addressed.
Edduyasha
Posts: 2709
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:55 pm

Postby Edduyasha » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:36 pm

Hmm...this debate is a bit complex for my little brain, but I know this:

The song "Land of Confusion"- Genesis/Disturbed fits this scenario pretty well.
Goodbye, cruel world...
I'm leaving you today
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye...

Goodbye, all you people
There's nothing you can say
To make me change my mind...
Goodbye...


- Pink Floyd (The Wall, 1979)
SuperMaids
Posts: 760
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:35 am

Postby SuperMaids » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:05 am

KTS wrote:The rich keep getting richer, and the poor get poorer. In order to do what you're suggesting, which is a good idea mind you, this problem would also have to be addressed.

While your right in saying this is true of Mexico, your forgetting the fact also applies to pretty much every nation the world over. What I'm suggesting, investing in Mexico in return for Mexico stopping educated professionals leving the country, would help alieviate this problem by distributing wealth in that it'd provide more jobs thanks to a more buyant economy, industrialise the nation more so it'd be able to manufacture goods which are worth far more money than the raw materials Mexico is famus for, it'd also increse tax funds for government projects by increasing the weath of the rich and the more vibrant economy would decrese prices for the poor.
The profesionals would help it's failing heath service, quaternity (high profit scientific) industries, education and cull criminal corruption of the CJS by increasing lawyer numbers.
Once the country has expierienced a more even share of wealth, no one would want it to go back to the old system and we could count on a bloodless revolution of sorts in the elections, voting only parties with *propper* wealth distribution ambitions (not the fake-asses Mexico have who claim to be communists but just want to suck up all the money).
It'd be great to see that kind of thing happen in the USA as well :)

As for Edduysha; what!? Explain how a random Genesis song fits this situation please, because I can't see any men of steel loosing controll by the hour or marching youths bringing not making promises they can't keep. But that's just me again.

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