Gay Marriage

A General discussion about everything other than South Park

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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:32 pm

albino.black.sheep wrote:Hello again.

If it doesn't affect or hurt you, or in fact is a problem/situation that has nothing to do with you, what's the problem?


why hello again, abs. I can't believe you found it in you do to me the courtesy of responding to me like a human being. Thanks a million

Well, you understand how this is self refuting, i hope? You start off by saying that this event is morally problematic, and then ask me what the problem is.

less than a 1/1,000,000,000 of the immoral actions committed in this world have any effect on me personally. Yet i still care. The fact that it has no personal effect on me is irrelevant. I hope you understand this.
albino.black.sheep
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Postby albino.black.sheep » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:41 pm

plk12345 wrote:
albino.black.sheep wrote:Hello again.

If it doesn't affect or hurt you, or in fact is a problem/situation that has nothing to do with you, what's the problem?


why hello again, abs. I can't believe you found it in you do to me the courtesy of responding to me like a human being. Thanks a million

Well, you understand how this is self refuting, i hope? You start off by saying that this event is morally problematic, and then ask me what the problem is.

less than a 1/1,000,000,000 of the immoral actions committed in this world have any effect on me personally. Yet i still care. The fact that it has no personal effect on me is irrelevant. I hope you understand this.


I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand why it matters to you if it doesn't affect you.
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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:43 pm

albino.black.sheep wrote:I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand why it matters to you if it doesn't affect you.


does the thought of a murder committed miles and miles away from you not bother you? Is all morality dependent on whether it affects you personally?
albino.black.sheep
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Postby albino.black.sheep » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:58 pm

plk12345 wrote:
albino.black.sheep wrote:I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand why it matters to you if it doesn't affect you.


does the thought of a murder committed miles and miles away from you not bother you? Is all morality dependent on whether it affects you personally?


While yes, I understand that someone being murdered is wrong, it doesn't affect me if it's miles away and I know no one involved. To think about it, yes, it's horrible and devasting to all involved but it's also just one of those facts of life I've come to accept without batting an eyelid.

So yes, morality is dependent on whether it affects me. I mean, we get stories in the news of children being molested and killed all the time here and for the time that I'm hearing or reading about it, I'm appalled but honestly when it's finished I can get on with my life.

But gay marriage is not wrong. I can't believe we're gonna go through this again, but it's just not. Gay people do what they do behind closed doors, it's not in your face and unless every gay person wore a pink t-shirt saying "Look at me, I'm a gay!", how would you know they are gay? Therefore, what's the problem?
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M00ndragon69
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Postby M00ndragon69 » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:57 am

Wow, PLK, by now you must have carpal tunnel from typing the same sh*t over and over. I didn't even read it, I just skimmed over what you wrote, because basically it is the same sh*t you posted two or three months ago.

But, if you must know, the fact that murders are being committed somewhere at this very moment doesn't bother me. Someone gets killed every minute of everyday, it isn't something I can change, and if no one was murdered ever we would have a bigger over population problem than we already do. Yes, if it was someone I know and care about being hurt that would be a different story, but I am not an angel, the idea of the suffering of people who I have not only never met or would ever meet but have never even heard of doesn't get me weepy. I have my own problems and the problems of people in my own life who I care about to think of.But, we aren't talking about murder, we are talking about two women or two men who love eachother very much being allowed to get married and have the same rights as straight couples. Even if you think same sex relations are immoral, they are hardly comparable to murder. Save that kind of sappy bullsh*t drama for your Bible study group, because most of the people on this board are too smart to get sucked into it.
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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:08 am

moondragon... i honestly don't think you read over what i have written, because i made it very clear that i was not going to even mention gay marriage. I daresay i have long worn out my welcome on such topics. I was merely responding to a kts quote i found very interesting. Here's a challenge for you: when did i ever equate same sex relations to murder? Honestly, i suggest you at least read what i wrote before flaming me. of course, your prejudice blinds you, and i cannot blame you. I expected nothing. albino black sheep has been by far more tolerant.

albino black sheep, an action remains immoral independent of whether it affects us personally. This is generally why we even take positions on social issues. Now if you insist that i make the connection to same sex marriage, i will. I believe marriage is an objective part of the world. This objective nature precludes redefinition. Once you make the decision that marriage can be easily redefined to appease anyone, you establish a logic that will lead to other more damaging definitions. In other words, once you take the first step in saying "marriage is not absolute, we can change it however we want", you logically set yourself up to make more redefinitions. Notice i am not saying that this must happen. I am saying that we establish a logic that sets us up for it. Now, while any single same sex couple's marriage has no effect on me personally, i fear it will completely change the way our society as a body views marriage. take your time to understand this. When we take any position on social issues, we generally do not base them on what affects us personally. We take positions based on what we feel is beneficial to our society as a whole. Now, i believe that legalizing same sex marriage is dangerous to our society's view of marriage. The idea of marriage and the idea of the family are two very closely related things. I doubt that you will deny this. If we legalize homosexual marriage, marriage will no longer be viewed as a prerequisite for having children, because homosexuals cannot have children by their very definition. In other words, legalizing same sex marriage will loosen the tie between family and marriage, and marriage will be lessened to just another simple decision in adult relationships.
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Postby Big-Will » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:08 am

plk12345 wrote:moondragon... i honestly don't think you read over what i have written, because i made it very clear that i was not going to even mention gay marriage.

Maybe you shouldn't have posted in the thread at all, since gay marriage is what it's all about.
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albino.black.sheep
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Postby albino.black.sheep » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:08 pm

M00ndragon69 wrote:But, we aren't talking about murder, we are talking about two women or two men who love eachother very much being allowed to get married and have the same rights as straight couples. Even if you think same sex relations are immoral, they are hardly comparable to murder. Save that kind of sappy bullsh*t drama for your Bible study group, because most of the people on this board are too smart to get sucked into it.


See, this is what I don't understand either. There is no way that murder and gay relationships are in the same ball park, let alone league.

And morally, there must be a screw loose in your mind, plk, if you really think that gay sex and murder are the same thing.

Big-Will wrote:
plk12345 wrote:moondragon... i honestly don't think you read over what i have written, because i made it very clear that i was not going to even mention gay marriage.


Maybe you shouldn't have posted in the thread at all, since gay marriage is what it's all about.


That's what I was gonna say.
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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:29 pm

albino.black.sheep wrote:And morally, there must be a screw loose in your mind, plk, if you really think that gay sex and murder are the same thing.


i suppose you didn't read what i wrote either? Have you read my post before this? When did i equate gay marriage to murder? I didn't even mention gay marriage once
vexille
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Postby vexille » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:12 pm

They wouldn't be talking to you if they didn't read your earlier posts. The tone of their responses is due to the content of your replies. And how could something as mundane as same-sex acts be considered to be as morally reprehensible to murder? What is so immoral about to adults fornicating? If it was rape, then yes, thats wrong. If an adult f*cks a child, then yes, thats evil. The child can't reliably consent if they don't know what they're in for. But if its two mature people whom feel love for each other, then I fail to see the sin in that. And don't bother with that horse-shit about same sex couples lacking the ability to procreate with each other, because there are enough heterosexual couples that are unable to reproduce due to one or both of them being infertile. Should such people be forbidden to marry as well?
Last edited by vexille on Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:38 pm

vexille wrote:They wouldn't be talking to you if they didn't read your earlier posts. The tone of their responses is due to the content of your replies. And how could something as mundane as same-sex acts be considered to be as morally reprehensible murder?


i have been tolerant enough to answer this many times. Can you give me one instance where i so much as implied that same sex acts are as morally problematic as murder?

vexille wrote:And don't bother with that horse-sh*t about same sex couples lacking the ability to procreate with each other, because there are enough heterosexual couples that are unable to reproduce due to one or both of them being infertile. Should such people be forbidden to marry as well?


no because the union remains between a man and a woman, and as long as this stands marriage will remain a prerequisite for children.
albino.black.sheep
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Postby albino.black.sheep » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:51 pm

plk12345 wrote:i have been tolerant enough to answer this many times. Can you give me one instance where i so much as implied that same sex acts are as morally problematic as murder?


So why even bother bringing up the subject of murder in the gay marriage thread?
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plk12345
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Postby plk12345 » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:59 pm

[quote="albino.black.sheep":207e6][quote="plk12345":207e6]i have been tolerant enough to answer this [i:207e6]many[/i:207e6] times. Can you give me one instance where i so much as implied that same sex acts are as morally problematic as murder?[/quote:207e6]

So why even bother bringing up the subject of murder in the gay marriage thread?[/quote:207e6]

[quote="plk12345":207e6][quote:207e6]It doesn't harm anyone, therefore it's not an issue of morals.[/quote:207e6]

wow, this quote really interested me[u:207e6]. I'm staying away from the original point of the thread here.[/u:207e6] I've often heard that the only "moral issues" are those which involve human suffering. As you have no doubt presumed, i disagree. Can an action be considered "wrong" when it seemingly does no harm to any human? It can. Here's an example: If a husband cheats on his wife, and his wife is ignorant of this action, has the husband done wrong? I don't believe anyone would say no. Yet the action causes no human suffering. Strange?[/quote:207e6]

[quote="albino.black.sheep":207e6][quote="plk12345":207e6][quote="albino.black.sheep":207e6]
Hello again.

If it doesn't affect or hurt you, or in fact is a problem/situation that has nothing to do with you, what's the problem?[/quote:207e6]

less than a 1/1,000,000,000 of the immoral actions committed in this world have any effect on me personally. Yet i still care. The fact that it has no personal effect on me is irrelevant. I hope you understand this.[/quote:207e6]

[quote="albino.black.sheep":207e6][u:207e6]I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand why it matters to you if it doesn't affect you.[/u:207e6][/quote:207e6]

[quote="plk12345":207e6]does the thought of a murder committed miles and miles away from you not bother you? Is all morality dependent on whether it affects you personally?[/quote:207e6][/quote:207e6]

i was talking about whether an action remains immoral if it has no personal effect on us. i never equated murder with same sex relations. This is the embodiment of the strawman fallacy.
vexille
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Postby vexille » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:21 pm

plk12345 wrote:


i have been tolerant enough to answer this many times. Can you give me one instance where i so much as implied that same sex acts are as morally problematic as murder?[/quote]

Why then did you bother mentioning murder if you didn't intend it as a comparison?

no because the union remains between a man and a woman, and as long as this stands marriage will remain a prerequisite for children.[/quote]

Clearly it isn't. And you fussily insisting that it is hardly lends credence to your argument. Actually, one doesn't need to be married in order to have children, so what kind of argument is that? My question earlier was that why is homosexuality immoral? Yet all I get from you is some clap-trap about children. Do you have a sufficient reason why its wrong, or were you simply conditioned to believe that it is immoral, in which case if you do, then you are clearly incapable of thinking for yourself.
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albino.black.sheep
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Postby albino.black.sheep » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:23 pm

plk12345 wrote:
albino.black.sheep wrote:
plk12345 wrote:i have been tolerant enough to answer this many times. Can you give me one instance where i so much as implied that same sex acts are as morally problematic as murder?


So why even bother bringing up the subject of murder in the gay marriage thread?


plk12345 wrote:
It doesn't harm anyone, therefore it's not an issue of morals.


wow, this quote really interested me. I'm staying away from the original point of the thread here. I've often heard that the only "moral issues" are those which involve human suffering. As you have no doubt presumed, i disagree. Can an action be considered "wrong" when it seemingly does no harm to any human? It can. Here's an example: If a husband cheats on his wife, and his wife is ignorant of this action, has the husband done wrong? I don't believe anyone would say no. Yet the action causes no human suffering. Strange?


albino.black.sheep wrote:
plk12345 wrote:
albino.black.sheep wrote:Hello again.

If it doesn't affect or hurt you, or in fact is a problem/situation that has nothing to do with you, what's the problem?


less than a 1/1,000,000,000 of the immoral actions committed in this world have any effect on me personally. Yet i still care. The fact that it has no personal effect on me is irrelevant. I hope you understand this.


albino.black.sheep wrote:I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand why it matters to you if it doesn't affect you.


plk12345 wrote:does the thought of a murder committed miles and miles away from you not bother you? Is all morality dependent on whether it affects you personally?


i was talking about whether an action remains immoral if it has no personal effect on us. i never equated murder with same sex relations. This is the embodiment of the strawman fallacy.


Yes, but you did this last time and I don't understand why. Last time you said same-sex relationships involved polygamy, bestiality and paedophilia. Admittedly not all on the same thread, but at one time or another you have said that same-sex marriage would eventually lead to these things. Now you're using murder as a comparison of reprehensible acts and now same-sex relationships are on a par in your head to murder.

Get over it. Most places don't send people to prison for being gay anymore. Mainly because that's playing into the gays' hands. Even two of the most religious countries in the world, Italy and Ireland, are considering changing their civil union laws to allow same-sex relationships.
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