Morality

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Kelly MacCornmac
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Re: Morality

Postby Kelly MacCornmac » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:34 am

Would you want anybody to hurt you? Of course not...so why hurt anybody else, I mean even if you aren't very moral you still would probally get hurt by that person.
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polymorph
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Re: Morality

Postby polymorph » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:26 am

Kelly MacCornmac wrote:Would you want anybody to hurt you? Of course not...so why hurt anybody else, I mean even if you aren't very moral you still would probally get hurt by that person.


BECAUSE IT'S FUN HAHAHHAHAHA(sorry I was compeled to do that)
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plk12345
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Re: Morality

Postby plk12345 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:30 am

Pip Tweek wrote:
plk12345 wrote:
"Can you provide me with a good reason I ought not harm someone?"


The reason one should not harm another boils down to the "golden rule" : do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

If everyone followed that one simple rule, this world would be utopia.

thanks for the response. Couple of things.
1. can you produce for me a reason to obey that golden rule? This seems to only delay the problem, not solve it
2. How do we determine whether the world being a utopia is a good thing? This is an unjustified presupposition.
polymorph
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Re: Morality

Postby polymorph » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:41 am

plk12345 wrote:
Pip Tweek wrote:
plk12345 wrote:
"Can you provide me with a good reason I ought not harm someone?"


The reason one should not harm another boils down to the "golden rule" : do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

If everyone followed that one simple rule, this world would be utopia.

thanks for the response. Couple of things.
1. can you produce for me a reason to obey that golden rule? This seems to only delay the problem, not solve it
2. How do we determine whether the world being a utopia is a good thing? This is an unjustified presupposition.


Well the reason to obey the "golden rule" is that if don't obey it your pretty much a douchefuck, sorry to be so blunt.
And since everyone has there own definition of the perfect place or the perfect society Utopia being good or bad is variable.
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Big-Will
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Re: Morality

Postby Big-Will » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:05 am

vexille wrote:you really need to get laid, PLK. Big time.

1. Here's a good example to sort out. Vexille has just made a comment that might or might not have harmed plk here. Is this a matter of morals? What moral did vexille disobey? Did she really harm him? This is the Internet, after all, and people say things on it that they normally wouldn't say to your face.

2. Plk has asked me to remove some of the posts made since I removed the ones relating to homosexuality, fearing that these new ones would lead to a flame war, but I won't do so. Would a flame war harm him? Would that be immoral? If so, why? Why does he post threads that he may soon fear would turn to flame wars? Wouldn't it be better if he gave some thought to what he posts before creating these threads, instead of coming to me after they're made and asking me to delete some posts that might have harmed him?

:)
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rainbow.bix
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Re: Morality

Postby rainbow.bix » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:58 am

I too have an example;

yesterday I fessed up to my Mum that I'll be getting my cheeks pierced soon and there's nothing she can do to stop me. She said that if I did so, then it would hurt her alot and that she'll never forgive me. I questioned why it would hurt her... because afterall, it's me who is putting a needle through my cheeks. I then explained that I have control over what happens to my body, and that it wouldn't be hurting her physically at all. She replied with "I wouldn't be able to look at you, you'd be ugly, you won't get a job, rah rah rah." I told her that they were purely superficial reasons, apart from the last one, in which I explained that I would put in clear retainers when I was working/ looking for a job. Then she started crying. I felt extremely bad, but I kept in mind that if I did get the piercings, I wouldn't be harming her physically, I wouldn't be putting her in danger, and it was my body, not hers. Therefore, I was firm with her and told her these reasons and there's nothing she can say to stop me. Realizing this, she compromised with me... I'll wait 3 months and get them whilst my parents were on vacation. I believe that I wasn't being immoral because;

1. I would be inflicting pain upon myself and not anybody else, which means that I will not be harming anybody else physically.
2. I would be doing it out of my own interests, for myself, without any external influences.
3. It's a relatively safe practice, with minimum risks.
4. It wouldn't lower my chances of getting a job because clear retainers are availible. Also, some workplaces allow piercings, so no risk there.
5. If my mother's reasons opposing my piercing plans are superficial, then I don't count them as proper, valid reasons, which means I win this round. :mrgreen:
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Pip Tweek
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Re: Morality

Postby Pip Tweek » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:50 pm

plk12345 wrote:
thanks for the response. Couple of things.
1. can you produce for me a reason to obey that golden rule? This seems to only delay the problem, not solve it
2. How do we determine whether the world being a utopia is a good thing? This is an unjustified presupposition.


My statement about utopia was just a personal opinion. Of course it's much more complex than just following the golden rule because there is a level where "harm" is subjective.

Just throwing in my 2 cents.
plk12345
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Re: Morality

Postby plk12345 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:32 pm

Big-Will wrote:
vexille wrote:you really need to get laid, PLK. Big time.

1. Here's a good example to sort out. Vexille has just made a comment that might or might not have harmed plk here. Is this a matter of morals? What moral did vexille disobey? Did she really harm him? This is the Internet, after all, and people say things on it that they normally wouldn't say to your face.

vexille didn't hurt me. What I would say is that with comments like these this thread is inevitably going to a flame war, something which I want to avoid. In any case, good example. Granted vexille did hurt me, can we produce a reason that he ought not to have?

Big-Will wrote:2. Plk has asked me to remove some of the posts made since I removed the ones relating to homosexuality, fearing that these new ones would lead to a flame war, but I won't do so. Would a flame war harm him? Would that be immoral?

Dunno, that's why I created this thread (i.e. to talk about the existence, definition, and grounding of morality)

Big-Will wrote:If so, why? Why does he post threads that he may soon fear would turn to flame wars? Wouldn't it be better if he gave some thought to what he posts before creating these threads, instead of coming to me after they're made and asking me to delete some posts that might have harmed him?

I still see absolutely no reasone someone would want to turn this thread into a flame war. It's not my fault if this turns into a flame war. As a board moderator, shouldn't you have a predisposition towards moderating threads?


rainbow.bix, if you were hurting your mother, even physically, by getting a piercing, is there any reason that this would be wrong?
vexille
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Re: Morality

Postby vexille » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:49 pm

plk12345 wrote:
Big-Will wrote:
vexille wrote:you really need to get laid, PLK. Big time.

1. Here's a good example to sort out. Vexille has just made a comment that might or might not have harmed plk here. Is this a matter of morals? What moral did vexille disobey? Did she really harm him? This is the Internet, after all, and people say things on it that they normally wouldn't say to your face.


That comment wasn't designed necessarily to insult PLK, it was me expressing an opinion. If PLK takes offence with that, then thats his problem. Also, if we knew each other personally, my response would be no more or less civil. It matters not to me if we were speaking via the internet, or in person. What do I have to be afraid of? If I happened to have broken some vague moral set of principles with my previous post, then it doesn't come close weighing heavily. Oh, and Big-Will, I'm actually a guy, not a she.....so close, but no handjob I think.


vexille didn't hurt me. What I would say is that with comments like these this thread is inevitably going to a flame war, something which I want to avoid. In any case, good example. Granted vexille did hurt me, can we produce a reason that he ought not to have?


First you say I didn't hurt you, and then I did? Is that another typing error?

Also, you're sort of asking daft questions about this morality stuff. You could look in a dictionary, or even search on google which could tell you all about the precepts of morality, instead of posting here, sounding like some pseudo-intellectual wannabe, whom responses like a foul-mouthed four year old whenever someone provides you with an answer.



rainbow.bix, if you were hurting your mother, even physically, by getting a piercing, is there any reason that this would be wrong?


The guy was talking about piercing himself, he said nothing about studding his mother. Besides, whose fault is it other than hers if she's a nutcase? ( No offence, Rainbow.Bix).
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M00ndragon69
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Re: Morality

Postby M00ndragon69 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:08 pm

Rainbowbix, sounds like your mom was being overly dramatic in an attempt to stop you from getting the piercing. Of course you are not physically hurting her, she said that to guilt you into not doing what she doesn't want you to do. Alot of times, mothers say similar things to guilt their children into doing what they want. Maybe it can be argued that the mothers can be harming their children in the way that the constant guilt trips makes it hard for their kids to independently make choices.

Here is one for everyone. What about people who misrepresent themselves, pretend to be something or someone they are not and deliberately mislead people around them for whatever reason. Are people like that doing harm to others?

As for the whole, can you prove morality exists and why shouldn't you harm people, well that is just a boring conversation for me..I think it was already stated that different people have different perspectives on that matter, and morality and the notion that people shouldn't harm eachother are ideals, something you can't physically prove are real. All this is going to get is us talking in circles and that is boring. I think the only reason why one shouldn't hurt other people is that they have empathy for others. As Kelly said, you wouldn't want them hurting you..But you can't force someone to feel empathy for others when they don't. You can force the morality about not hurting others on people like that, but that doesn't mean they will listen. I guess that is one instance where people push morality on others to try to insure they won't harm other people in an attempt to keep their society together and orderly, and that doesn't always work. There are people who don't give a f*ck.That was what Shamerick was trying to say ( and no he wasn't justifying Hitler's actions) if someone doesn't want to fit into a society, doesn't believe that society's notion of morality, then maybe they will feel there is no reason to abide by what that society considers moral. Which could include doing harm to people if they want. He wasn't justifying it, he was just saying that there are people who think like that.
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plk12345
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Re: Morality

Postby plk12345 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:31 pm

^
but Shamerick did not give a reason to not harm others, he said there is no reason to not harm others for the person he described. So, by this logic, there was nothing wrong with what Hitler did. Keep in mind, I'm not calling him a Nazi-sympathizer, I'm just saying that justifying Hitler logically follows from his reasoning, which seems like a problem he has to deal with. Regardless of whether he was trying to, he justified Hitler
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Re: Morality

Postby M00ndragon69 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:08 am

Well, I don't know him at all, but maybe he found the subject of people's thoughts on the morality of harming others interesting, but found the preachy nonsense of talking about why one shouldn't hurt others boring. I mean what is everyone going to say about that which hasn't been said a million times before? And we all know you want that topic to go in a specific direction, which is probably why you don't see a bunch of regular posters jumping on this thread, everyone knows you and your views on morality too well, and they are probably bored of the whole thing.. Now, someone like the kind of person Shamerick described, who may reject society's believe in the morality of not doing harm to others..Well,that is an interesting topic to discuss. For instance, how does someone get like that? Is it because of the environment they live in, or because of something genetic or spiritually wrong with them?
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plk12345
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Re: Morality

Postby plk12345 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:28 pm

^or we can talk about why he was wrong and how we can know he was wrong. The reason i made this thread was to discuss that.
rainbow.bix
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Re: Morality

Postby rainbow.bix » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:46 pm

M00ndragon69 wrote:Rainbowbix, sounds like your mom was being overly dramatic in an attempt to stop you from getting the piercing. Of course you are not physically hurting her, she said that to guilt you into not doing what she doesn't want you to do. Alot of times, mothers say similar things to guilt their children into doing what they want. Maybe it can be argued that the mothers can be harming their children in the way that the constant guilt trips makes it hard for their kids to independently make choices.


I think you just nailed it. My mother was being completely unreasonable. I also forgot to mention that she said that if I did get them, that it'll cause her immense stress and then she'll get cancer. :? That just angered me, because people shouldn't joke about something as serious as that. Needless to say, it didn't sway me in the slightest. And although I felt bad for making her cry, I realized that she was trying everything in "the book" to persuade me not to go through with getting the piercings, and most of her reasons were ridiculous and illogical.
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shamernick
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Re: Morality

Postby shamernick » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:41 am

1. I'm a chick

2. When having a discussion about something as abstract as morals a person's opinion cannot be labled as right or wrong.

3. I don't need to find justification or even a good reason not to cause harm to someone else, I have known for a very long time that I will live my life causing as little harm to anything as I can. This is not because I'm afraid of being punished or ex-communicated. I suspect to a person who has to look for a reason not to cause harm would not make choices based on what other people consider moral or even right as everyone living in our society already knows it is unacceptable to harm others.

4. While I can say that in this type of situation I could NOT provide what would constitute a GOOD reason to a person such as this I certainly do not mean that to say it is then acceptable for them to do it. I'm sorry if I made my assertion about the specific question sound like it was my personal belief...I was merely trying to provide an objective answer for what I thought was an interesting topic.

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