Would you go gay... for God?!

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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby M00ndragon69 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:50 am

Big-Will wrote:Female sperm? Male eggs? Oh my Science!

superiorsavior wrote:male/male and female/female procreation (soon to be a possibility).

That ...wouldn't do anything to reduce overpopulation. :P

superiorsavior wrote:The orthadox churches have always taken the old testement commandment as authoritive, as have Jews.

Ya think? This reads like the Catholic position. But then, that was 1984. How much has changed in 24 years? Many Conservative Jews feel the same way Orthodox and Catholic believers do.

People have a hard time believing that we Christians are condemning the act, not the person. Or maybe Christians fail to see that the act is the person - that if we're condemning homosexual acts, we're condemning homosexuals themselves. We can't do anything about that kind of thinking but to continue saying that we'll speak out against the acts. If God were to come out and say that homosexual acts are moral, we'd think he's off his rocker, as I said before, but whatcha gonna do, huh?

superiorsavior wrote:Jesus didn't even mention homosecuality

He didn't need to. This is all he needed to say about it: "They have the law and the prophets. If they hearkened not to them, neither will they hearken to me." But he was talking about his own people, the Jews, who obviously heard the Law and the Prophets in their synagogues and thus knew what they said about homosexual acts. Paul had to explain it to converts who didn't read the Old Testament like we do now.

Now, back to the list of questions in the OP:
superiorsavior wrote:If this were 'revealed' to you, what would you do?

Would you pray for forgiveness every time you fancied someone of the opposite gender?

No.

superiorsavior wrote:Would you break off your heterosexual relationship, even a marriage?

No.

superiorsavior wrote:Would you attempt to change your orientation to gay? Attending seminars, reading books, going to workshops, camps, etc.

No, for it would profit me nothing.

superiorsavior wrote:Would you become celibate? Refusing to seek out love for the rest of your life?

No, for I would remember a time when God said heterosexual sex was the norm. I haven't seen a religious text that codified them as the norm at one point, though I know of homosexuality being celebrated in Rome and ancient Greece, and in the Renaissance.

superiorsavior wrote:Would you seek out a homosexual relationship even if you didn't love the person?

No. Nor would I see why a homosexual person would seek out a heterosexual relationship, even though I see that happening.

superiorsavior wrote:Would you have sex with someone of the same gender as the lord commands you to?

No, for I would not have an interest in such a thing. He would no longer be my lord if he commanded me to. Nor do I see it commanded that a homosexual person should have sex with a heterosexual person.

superiorsavior wrote:Would you send your kids off to be raised by a gay couple and never see them again?

No, for they are mine. If they are forcibly taken from me, I'd fight to get them back.

superiorsavior wrote:Would you refuse every natural impulse inside of you, in the name of faith?

No, since it would no longer be my faith.

superiorsavior wrote:Would you do it because the pope told you to or some sh*t like that?

No, since the faith the pope would preach would not be the one I grew up with.

superiorsavior wrote:Or would you fight it though, say this is wrong, that god wants me to be happy the way I am? That all my children need is love and a soft hand to guide them?

This is what I would do.

superiorsavior wrote:So how about you then hmm? Would you go gay for Jesus?

No, since he would not be the Jesus I grew up with.

Which leads me to ask why any homosexual would want to become a Christian, if they had to answer "no" to the questions I answered "no" to. I mean, seriously...



Well, Will, you say you speak out against the act not the people.But can you tell us how gay sex is more or less moral than straight sex besides the whole because "God" says so answer? And do you even know any gay people you are on good terms with? Have you ever sat down and talked to them about what some of them have gone through..Not only am I bi, but I know alot of gay men, lesbians and bisexual men and women. I know alot of straight people too of course..When it comes to relationships I see alot of the same things in both the straight relationships and the gay ones..Some people are faithful to their partners and treat them right, some people treat their partners like sh*t and cheat on them, and some people just want sex with no commitment. This is true of both straight and gay relationships. The way I see it, the only difference between a gay relationship and a straight one is the genders of the people involved. Me personally, as far as a relationship goes, I think I want the same thing as a straight girl. I want someone who is there for me, who treats me right, who is fun to be with, and supportive, and doesn't except me to do all the house work..The only difference is at this point, I want that relationship to be with a woman not a man. And yes, sex is part of love but it is not all of it, and most gays and lesbians I know get that. But it seems like the people who condemn us think all we care about is the sex. Well, what if I said that all straight relationships between hardcore Christians are only about sex ( or not having sex until marriage) and having children, not love and partnership? Wouldn't feel good would it to be stereotyped like that?

You say you don't condemn the people, but you speak out against the act...Well, what about what people who aren't straight want for themselves? Do you really think God wants them to have feelings for people of the same sex but either be miserable in a straight marriage ( and make their partner miserable too, because who wants to be married to someone who isn't sexually attracted to them?) or just not have sex ever? Celibacy may work for you Will ( I assume since you are unmarried and hardcore Catholic you don't get any), but alot of people don't want that and never will no matter how hard anyone prays for them not to be gay. I do not care what the Bible say, f*ck I am Pagan and there is no official bible for my religion ( and I am f*cking glad because if we had one too many people would be slaves to the scriptures instead of thinking for themselves), there is no way I am going to ever believe that any loving, all knowing deity is going to want people to suffer in that way. I agree with Blue Twilight, however you want to think of God, I believe He/She/They want people to not only love eachother but to be happy in love, and someone is never going to be happy in love if they aren't with someone they really want to be with.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby Big-Will » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:11 am

M00ndragon69 wrote:do you even know any gay people you are on good terms with? Have you ever sat down and talked to them about what some of them have gone through?

Why, I sure do. My oldest sister. She was straight until she went to college, then she was bi, then she was lesbian and still is to this day. She is who she is, I'm not gonna hold that against her.

M00ndragon69 wrote:When it comes to relationships I see alot of the same things in both the straight relationships and the gay ones..Some people are faithful to their partners and treat them right, some people treat their partners like sh*t and cheat on them, and some people just want sex with no commitment. This is true of both straight and gay relationships. The way I see it, the only difference between a gay relationship and a straight one is the genders of the people involved.

My sister learned this as well, and I learned that from watching her.

M00ndragon69 wrote:it seems like the people who condemn us think all we care about is the sex.

That's because the Christian perspective is that homosexual sex goes against God's command that a woman and man should become one and procreate. Since your perspective is different, all you see is the sex.

M00ndragon69 wrote:Well, what if I said that all straight relationships between hardcore Christians are only about sex ( or not having sex until marriage) and having children, not love and partnership? Wouldn't feel good would it to be stereotyped like that?

Considering that people call us Catholics Mary-worshippers, when I know that isn't the case and thus am no longer bothered by it, I'd have to say I wouldn't be bothered by the stereotype you present either.

M00ndragon69 wrote:Well, what about what people who aren't straight want for themselves? Do you really think God wants them to have feelings for people of the same sex but either be miserable in a straight marriage ( and make their partner miserable too, because who wants to be married to someone who isn't sexually attracted to them?)

Why would God ever want that? Is the homosexual person a fool?

M00ndragon69 wrote:or just not have sex ever?

Now, here's where "hate the sin, love the sinner" comes into play. If homosexuals should go and fall in love, who am I to split them up? If they should have sex in their love, I'd probably speak out against it still, but I don't expect them to stop having sex just because of that. But I'm thinking what St. Paul was speaking against was promiscuous displays of homosexual sex (hell, we look down on promiscuous displays of heterosexual sex as well). What homosexuals do behind closed doors isn't any of my concern. Now, as I said, my oldest sister is the only homosexual I know, and i don't usually talk about it with her, as that's not my business, although it's interesting to hear about it when she discusses it with the family.

And for the record, yes, I'm celibate. I may live out my days like this, but changing that status is not a priority.

Blue Twilight wrote:Since when is love a sin? Isn't one of the most important lessons of the Bible to "love one another as yourself?"

Yeah, but that's more brotherly or friendly than romantic. ;) Love between two people wanting to share a life together carries in it a contract you don't have among friends.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby M00ndragon69 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:16 pm

Well, you know why I assumed you probably don't know any gay people? Because you talk like your views on religion are the only right ones and there is no room for exception. But if you love your sister and you are telling the truth about it not being your concern what she does behind closed doors, then why would you speak out against homosexual acts at all? How do you know that God didn't make someone in your family gay to teach YOU that people who don't exactly do everything the bible say are people too? You say your sister was straight til she got to college, well how do you know she wasn't just repressing the fact that she liked girls because she was afraid of what might happen if people around her knew that was how she really felt? I don't know how old she is, but I know you are in your 40's and if she is older than you, she probably grew up in a time when it really was not ok to be out of the closet.

Not all Christians speak out against gay sex..You know what I have been in a gay pride parade in 2002, this group I was in at my community college went to Seattle for Pride Day and marched in the parade. You know who else was in the parade? This church group, who were in support of their family members who are gay. If they were for speaking out against gay sex, then why would they be in the parade. Infact you see stuff on the news about other churches that are for accepting gay people. I know where too churches like that in my state are. They have these big ass Rainbow flags outside their doors..LOL.

And about what I said about God wanting gay people to endure straight marriages that they don't want..Well, it does happen.. Alot of people put pressure on gay people to become straight and get married. I have seen it, and I have read articles on programs that not only try to convert gays and lesbians to be straight but to also get them to marry. And I have seen the results of this kind of pressure for gays to have straight marriages on Jerry Springer. It doesn't work. It ultimately makes both people in the marriage miserable. But some people don't see that it doesn't work, and keep pressuring gays to change and get married.

And since you are not having sex and if you truly have no interest in changing that status, then how can you really judge people who don't want the same kind of life you chose for yourself? You haven't walked in their shoes, so maybe you don't have any right to speak out against anyone.. And think about this.People mock people who aren't straight or who are "slutty", but they also mock people with your sexual status too.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby Big-Will » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:45 pm

M00ndragon69 wrote:Well, you know why I assumed you probably don't know any gay people? Because you talk like your views on religion are the only right ones and there is no room for exception.

You're right on that count, but just because I believe that way doesn't mean no one else can have their say.

M00ndragon69 wrote:But if you love your sister and you are telling the truth about it not being your concern what she does behind closed doors, then why would you speak out against homosexual acts at all?

Because they've been known to happen in plain view, not behind closed doors.

M00ndragon69 wrote:How do you know that God didn't make someone in your family gay to teach YOU that people who don't exactly do everything the bible say are people too?

Because I knew her before I learned to read? Maybe if she were born after I had learned to read...

The Bible says that we're all sinners, so no one has an upper hand on anyone else. Isn't that like people?

M00ndragon69 wrote:how do you know she wasn't just repressing the fact that she liked girls because she was afraid of what might happen if people around her knew that was how she really felt?

How do you know she didn't actually like guys back in the day? You yourself like both genders and probably won't choose one over the other.

M00ndragon69 wrote:Not all Christians speak out against gay sex..You know what I have been in a gay pride parade in 2002, this group I was in at my community college went to Seattle for Pride Day and marched in the parade. You know who else was in the parade? This church group, who were in support of their family members who are gay. If they were for speaking out against gay sex, then why would they be in the parade. Infact you see stuff on the news about other churches that are for accepting gay people. I know where too churches like that in my state are. They have these big ass Rainbow flags outside their doors..LOL.

As I said, love the sinner...

M00ndragon69 wrote:And since you are not having sex and if you truly have no interest in changing that status, then how can you really judge people who don't want the same kind of life you chose for yourself?

Have I said any of them are damned? Does my speaking out against homosexual acts imply that those who practice them are damned? I don't think so, for such implication would mean that I've damned someone for one single issue when in fact I believe there's more to judgment than that one issue. That is the way God will judge as well - over the entirety of a life, not just one aspect of it.

M00ndragon69 wrote:You haven't walked in their shoes, so maybe you don't have any right to speak out against anyone.

Which is why Christians speak out against sins, not {or shouldn't} against the sinners who commit them.

M00ndragon69 wrote:And think about this. People mock people who aren't straight or who are "slutty", but they also mock people with your sexual status too.

So they may. I've learned to ignore them.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:47 pm

Blue Twighlight wrote:Since when is love a sin? Isn't one of the most important lessons of the Bible to "love one another as yourself?"


While the importance placed on love in the bible is overstated (few other than Jesus prwach universal love and even he faulters in his beliefe in love when faced with the Pharassees/ indignant crowds of mirraicle whores) and love is too vague a tterm to base morality on, it's true that it's one of the foundations of Jesus's teachings and should not be ignored in favpur of an old-skool Torah teaching found in a list of equally reprehensable behaviours now considered perfectly moral.

Blue Twighlight wrote:We humans were put on this earth to do more than simply reproduce. We were given the capacity to *love*, not simply spit out babies and expect them to do the same.

My main beef with Catholic morality (based on the quote from God's first meet with Abraham, to be "fruitful and multiply so as to cover the earth" and the teachings of Aquines) and many other forms of Christian morality steaming from it's root, is the purpose they choose for human existance, procreation. It's the same purpose as for bactiria, the purpose of Darwinian evolution, not the purpose of higher human life, unless we want to be social Darwinists and procreate to the max.

Not to sound too Kyle The Skeptic, but it's like Plato says, love for ideas/personalities is greater than physical love, which produces humans, as it produces ideas, which live on forever. Love for personalities expressed through physical love (as in hetro or homosexual sex) is only good as an extension of the love non-physical bond. Procreatory sex is only good if the non-physical love you have for the babby is strong, otherwise it's no better than non-procreatory sex.
As most people have non-procreatory hetrosexual activity, where is the problem (for those people) with homosexual activity?

Blue Twighlight wrote:I doubt God is as concerned about reproduction as he is about people following his teachings to love one another.

God doesn't want us to overpopulate his earth, and kill off all the animals we steward over as we would if we only procreated like a virus on this earth. We really would be as the Gaia hippies think us if we lived only to procreate; even (some higher) animals (e.g. dolphins) have emotions and ideas deeper than procreation! I don't believe.

KennyKicksAss wrote:I don't wanna go to hell but I wouldn't give up sex either so I'd have to be constantly drugged up out my mind.
How does being gay make you end up in hell? Otherwise, good veiled point there, it's almost impossible for (most) people to go their whole lives without giving up sex, the kind they were naturally made (by god if you believe in him) to love, without very unnatural means (like drugs or hardcore brainwashing therapy/social control) used to stop them being who they are. If god's in it for nature and what's natural (argument against homosexuality) he's against unnatural methods to stop homosexual behaviour (if it's in their genes, anything).

Big Will wrote:That ...wouldn't do anything to reduce overpopulation.

Neither would the catholic hypothesis that life = procreation. But I get what you mean. What makes a pair from the same gender who'd love their kid more as they've actually chosen to have one and gone through a difficult processe and passed childcare competency tests (no doubt required for gay couples when it comes in if it is legally allowed) to get it, be intrinsicly worse than a hetrosexual couple who havn't been "vetted" to raise children or who've had their child by accident? :)

Big Will wrote:Ya think? This reads like the Catholic position. But then, that was 1984. How much has changed in 24 years?

Of course the Catholics feel homosexuaity is wrong based on the Old Testement, that's what inspired Aquines to justify it in Summa Theologica. It's just the other churches don't have that added layer of doctrine telling them to hate homosexuals for the "rational" reason that they're "unnatural."
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby Big-Will » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:50 pm

I think I have to fix that post before I answer it. :)
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:54 pm

If it's simply a matter of going against a law from Leviticus, what makes the rule against homosexual behaviour (condemned mainly as the Idolitrous Pagans, sorry M00n, committed soddomy, when read in context) worse than and therefore still aplicable unlike the other absurd commands in Leviticus, such as "thou shalt not permit a witch to live," a parent can stone their child if it disobays them, houses with mildew on MUST be burnt, how a man should dispose of seminal fluid staned garments after masturbation, how women in periods should be treated, what foods you should/shouldn't eat? Except the Shabbos laws, and weekly the food, Jesus never specificly mentioned that these should be scrapped and certainly never implied the ruling on homosexuality were a "special case" that should be retained.

Big Will wrote:Many Conservative Jews feel the same way Orthodox and Catholic believers do

Jews were influenced by the catholic teaching in the lands they inhabited, and influenced the catholic teaching itself (i'm not sure if they have their own Aqines, never read through the latter day Rabbis/ rabinical schollars). Also, islamics scholars who read Aristotle and influenced Aquines, in his decree that it's not "natural" to have homosexual intercourse and THUS is justifiably evil and RATIONAL to adhere to the Levitican law on homosexuality specifically.

Big Will wrote:People have a hard time believing that we Christians are condemning the act, not the person.

While i fully agree with the point that it's actions and not words that are to be condemned, not all christians get that point; see the WBC or the God Channel :lol:

That may explain why not all people believe "Christians" don't object to the people only the act; because many (in some regions, most) Christians DO object to the people as well as the act.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:56 pm

Big Will wrote:maybe Christians fail to see that the act is the person - that if we're condemning homosexual acts, we're condemning homosexuals themselves.

So you're saying the church SHOULD judge homosexuals as well as their actions? I don't get it. I know that's not what you mean, but saying the act IS the person dehumanises gays quite a bit, as saying a Forum moderator IS you as a person, you're nothing more, and a condemnation of moderation on forums is a condemnation of YOU. I'm sure you're more of a person than that as are gays.

Big Will wrote:We can't do anything about that kind of thinking but to continue saying that we'll speak out against the acts.

I hope you get it into your own followers heads that you're supposed to be condemning the act, before you try convincing other people :(

Big Will wrote:If God were to come out and say that homosexual acts are moral, we'd think he's off his rocker, as I said before, but whatcha gonna do, huh?

Why would you think God’s insane for one act of inconsistency? He’s inconsistent every time he allows a “miracle” to occur, and was inconsistent in changing the doctrine when Jesus was born. Don’t say “Jesus completed the law” or any of that wordplay, Jesus changed a lot of things definitely regarded by “god’s first chosen people” to be His Commands, in his literally changing commandments in the Sermon on the Mount (interpreting=changing) and his implied changing doctrine by not following the Shabbos and salvation for gentiles.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:58 pm

Will wrote:He didn't need to (mention homosexuality)

We can’t argue from His silence that Jesus was for homosexuality, but if it was THAT big an issue, as big as the Church treats it, don’t you think he would have mentioned it Himself? Condemning Adultry isn’t the same as condemning homosexual sex, as they can have long lasting loving relationships, it’s just rare as social conditions have led to promiscuity being the norm among their people (I don’t think it’s an intrinsic part of it) .

Will wrote:This is all he needed to say about it: "They have the law and the prophets. If they hearkened not to them, neither will they hearken to me."

He wasn’t talking about homosexuality there. I know you know that (duh!) you were just stating one of the (many) parts in which Jesus emphasises the importance of obeying the OT; it’s just that it also highlights the hypocrisy of some of his mission. He breaks some OT rules and calls them redundant traditions, such as the Shabbos thing and the dietary restrictions and salvation only for the Jews, but then says some rules must be obeyed still. He doesn’t say which ones. And with such a passing reference made to the act in the old testament (in a long list of often absurd or medically unsound laws and rules) doesn’t imply it should be kept on as an important precept.

Will wrote:But he was talking about his own people, the Jews, who obviously heard the Law and the Prophets in their synagogues and thus knew what they said about homosexual acts. Paul had to explain it to converts who didn't read the Old Testament like we do now.

Good explanation for Jesus’ silence where Paul wasn’t. But the main reason Paul spoke against it was probably because when he saw homosexuality, in Athens, he saw it in it’s most debauched form, pederasty, and was unable to know it could result in a lifelong and loving committed relationship. That’s why he NEVER specifically condemns homosexuality, only homosexual prostitutes and forceful lovers (often meaning paedophiles in that time). So he was obviously against homosexuals as those Christians who claim all gays are paedophiles today do.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:00 am

[quote=”Will”][quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Would you pray for forgiveness every time you fancied someone of the opposite gender?
[/quote] No[/quote]
Good to see someone committed to their own beliefs, but don’t base your beliefs on faith if you wouldn’t expect homosexuals to do the same as you would if in their religious situation; don’t make them pray for forgiveness for their homosexual desires, which is implied by condemning the act and explicitly stated by many churches that don’t allow priests with an admittedly gay desire (who don’t act on it), as if their desire is a sin (implied by those that say the act is as those that desire murder or theft pray, often even if it isn’t in the doctrine, for forgiveness for sinful desires).

[quote=”Will”] [quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Would you break off your heterosexual relationship, even a marriage?
[/quote] no [/quote]
Good to know you place relationship above religious commandments. But never tell a homosexual couple to break up, or imply they should, if you wouldn’t do the same in their situation. Otherwise you’re no better than a dirty little ginger Pharasee rat!

[quote=”Will”] [quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Would you attempt to change your orientation to gay? Attending seminars, reading books, going to workshops, camps, etc.
[/quote] No, for me it would profit nothing. [/quote]
YOU’LL BURN IN HELL FOR NOT BEING GAY?! Don’t you know that? You’re not fulfilling you’re purpose in life, to procreate, if you don’t at least TRY and change in line with whatever god wills at the moment! Doesn’t that mean anything that helps you turn gay is a profit to you unless… you already…. are….

[quote=”Will”] [quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Would you become celibate? Refusing to seek out love for the rest of your life?
[/quote] No, for I would remember a time when God said heterosexual sex was the norm. I haven't seen a religious text that codified them as the norm at one point, though I know of homosexuality being celebrated in Rome and ancient Greece, and in the Renaissance.
[/quote]
You said yourself that the past beliefs of a faith don’t matter (on the war against scientology thread, I think it was you) so why would what god once commanded be justification to commit homosexual acts? You could say, as Slavery and sexism were once permitted on religious grounds , that is justification to hold slaves or commit sexist acts.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:02 am

Didn’t know homosexuality was celebrated in the Renascence (have to look that up) but it doesn’t matter what faiths in the past or other faiths say, if God gave a TRUE revelation that homosexuality were wrong, completely proving his existence and speaking to the people as at Sinai once more, to say heterosexuality is wrong in the modern day, the new beliefs would completely invalidate the old, which are handed down words from god that, perhaps, hold a corrupted vision of his truth, compared to direct revelation. Your argument here is dust.

[quote=”Will”] [quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Would you seek out a homosexual relationship even if you didn't love the person?
[/quote] No. Nor would I see why a homosexual person would seek out a heterosexual relationship, even though I see that happening.
[/quote]
If you don’t know why a homosexual would seek out a heterosexual relationship, you don’t know what kind of social pressure you’re under when you’re an “abomination in the eyes of god” undeserving of His love who should be taken into the desert, tied to a post and stoned to death, metaphorically or physically. The condemnation encourages homosexuals to engage in non-loving relationships; by not allowing them children or marriage they remove the one thread which binds unloving married couples for life long periods, and promoting promiscuity by forcing action into the shadows. Now I fear it’s too late to prevent promiscuity as heterosexual Dr. Frankenstein’s have created a VERY promiscuous monster of their own creation, it’ll take years of struggle against gays to destroy “gay culture.”

[quote=”Will”] [quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Would you have sex with someone of the same gender as the lord commands you to?
[/quote] No, for I would not have an interest in such a thing. He would no longer be my lord if he commanded me to. Nor do I see it commanded that a homosexual person should have sex with a heterosexual person.
[/quote]
So you only believe in God because you like what he says, if he ever disagrees with you then he can take a hike? Very Abraham like, very humble and ready to sacrifice your son on an alter to him. I like it, but God most likely doesn’t if he hasn’t changed His mind since the Binding of Isaac! Very Satan like that arrogance in the face of His command to do as you don’t wish done!

It’s implied by the “law” of procreation that heterosexuality is better than asexuality (which is as bad as homosexuality if that’s the reason and was against the customs of Jewish families in OT times) and therefore that asexual if not monks have a lower chance of getting into heaven.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:03 am

[quote=”Will”] [quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Would you send your kids off to be raised by a gay couple and never see them again?
[/quote] No, for they are mine. If they are forcibly taken from me, I'd fight to get them back. [/quote]
That’s one point (from the original post) that I don’t see the relevance of, but if science advances to the point that homosexuals can have children, their right to have them shouldn’t be taken away from them, nor should research into making it a possibility (which is like unto stealing their kids before they’re born). Making it illegal to have custody of kids after leaving a spouse and coming out, is also wrong, as a homosexual household is worse than a heterosexual one after divorce, for no intrinsic reason, for a child to grow up in, no matter what the law says. Adoption rights are what this aimed at I think, and while the analogy is in the main, false, to stop homosexuals adopting is “stealing” their potential kids from them if an adopted parent is more of a parent than a biological parent; biology doesn’t mean all in parenting, in fact it may mean very little compared with a loving upbringing.

[quote=”Will”] [quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Would you refuse every natural impulse inside of you, in the name of faith? [/quote] No, since it would no longer be my faith. [/quote]
So far so Satan-like, very Rebellious angel! :Evil:
[quote=”Will”] [quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Would you do it because the pope told you to or some sh*t like that?
[/quote] No, since the faith the pope would preach would not be the one I grew up with.
[/quote]
So it comes to THIS. This also goes for your last point that even if Jesus told you something you thought he said was false, you’d adhere to tradition over His word. The main (if not the only) reason you worship Christ is that you grew up with it. It’s all because it’s part of your upbringing, your beliefs are simply what’s been instilled in you. You’re a perfect case study for Dawkin’s theories :(
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:06 am

[quote=”Will”] [quote=“SuperiorSavior”] Or would you fight it though, say this is wrong, that god wants me to be happy the way I am? That all my children need is love and a soft hand to guide them?
[/quote] This is what I would do [/quote]
Then why make homosexuals adhere to a situation you yourself wouldn’t, by admission, partake in? Why condemn them from acting as you would act?

[quote=”Will”] Which leads me to ask why any homosexual would want to become a Christian, if they had to answer "no" to the questions I answered "no" to. I mean, seriously...
[/quote]
So god created a people who’s genes make them unable to be Christian, to enter heaven? God doesn’t love us all? This seems to contradict many church teachings (as it implies god doesn’t love us all, certainly not equally from birth) and cultural norms (it supports racism against those with the gay gene, if such a thing exists). Way to discredit Christianity!


[quote=”will”] She is who she is, I'm not gonna hold that against her. [/quote]
I assume you give that treatment to all homosexuals. I’m not being sarcastic here, seriously, I do. But what of Christians without such intimate experience of homosexuality? Do they understand it’s the “act” that needs condemning over the person, as you do? Do you think you hurt your sister psychologically/emotionally when you preach her actions are wrong? Probably not, and you probably don’t, but it probably doesn’t help you get close to her as you’re denying a big part of her life. I know quite a bit about gays (my Best Friend offline is one and so are many friends online and I’m either A-sexual ( thanks for meeting another of my kind, Blue Twig light! or bi-leaning-homosexual with no inclination to “get busy” with anyone’s asses (eww…) hence I found this so interesting.
[quote=”Will”]
[quote=”M00nDragon”] When it comes to relationships I see alot of the same things in both the straight relationships and the gay ones..Some people are faithful to their partners and treat them right, some people treat their partners like sh*t and cheat on them, and some people just want sex with no commitment. This is true of both straight and gay relationships. The way I see it, the only difference between a gay relationship and a straight one is the genders of the people involved.
[/quote] My sister learned this as well, and I learned that from watching her.
[/quote]
So what’s the problem, except the Biblical problem, with homosexuality? Nothing. Then I hope your religious arguments against it are strong, and either way, they shouldn’t effect policy (adoption policy, etc.) in a nation supposedly separated church and state. Supposedly, Huckabee, supposedly…
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:08 am

[quote=”Wiill”] [quote =” M00n”]it seems like the people who condemn us think all we care about is the sex.
[/quote] Since your perspective is different, all you see is the sex.
[/quote]
So it’s NOT the Old Testament that matters (as you said to ME earlier) it’s the Natural Law hypothesis of Aquinas! This could apply equally as a criticism of asexual you know! It helps overpopulate the planet. How is any other perspective “seeing only sex” whereas yours is different? YOU see only sex in what THEY do in bed, but not in your own activity, because that’s what you want to see. Their sex is only one part of their loving relationship as is non procreatory heterosexual activity, that helps promote loving Non-sexual relationship.

[quote=”Will”] [quote=”M00n”] Well, what if I said that all straight relationships between hardcore Christians are only about sex ( or not having sex until marriage) and having children, not love and partnership? Wouldn't feel good would it to be stereotyped like that?
[/quote] Considering that people call us Catholics Mary-worshippers, when I know that isn't the case and thus am no longer bothered by it, I'd have to say I wouldn't be bothered by the stereotype you present either.
[/quote]
Firstly, compared with other religions, some denominations of Catholicism especially DO hold an almost idolatrous view of the Virgin Mary, from the limited amount I know of Catholicism. Secondly and most importantly (don’t just criticise point no# 1 and forget this!) there are very few people who believe that criticism compared with those that believe the criticism of homosexuals, and few who would use it to harm you/ create anti-catholic political policies (removed from religion) as occurs with homosexuals who are said to be all promiscuous, it’s a far more harmful stereotype and is far more widely believed. Thirdly, It’s far worse for gays than Catholics, especially as there are a lot of Catholics who can huddle together to ward off criticism but not that many gays.
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Re: Would you go gay... for God?!

Postby superiorsavior » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:09 am

M00n is implying God is forcing gays into a position of almost insurmountable temptation, correct me if I’m wrong, where they’re likely to fall into sin, and if the genetic link is true and God made them, this is true. Gays are likely to enter non loving relationships (As I say above) with Hets and be abusive (perhaps the cause of a lot of abusive relationships in the Christian areas?) and go to hell, not what she literally says here.

[quote=”Will”][quote=”M00N”] or just not have sex ever?

[/quote] Now, here's where "hate the sin, love the sinner" comes into play. If homosexuals should go and fall in love, who am I to split them up? If they should have sex in their love, I'd probably speak out against it still, but I don't expect them to stop having sex just because of that
[/quote]
Then why hold beliefs against homosexuals at all?

[quote=”Big Will”][quote=”M00n”] or just not have sex ever?
[/quote] But I'm thinking what St. Paul was speaking against was promiscuous displays of homosexual sex (hell, we look down on promiscuous displays of heterosexual sex as well). What homosexuals do behind closed doors isn't any of my concern. Now, as I said, my oldest sister is the only homosexual I know, and i don't usually talk about it with her, as that's not my business, although it's interesting to hear about it when she discusses it with the family.

[/quote]
So why condemn homosexuality at all, if it’s only promiscuity that’s to fault? Why not target ALL promiscuity both homo and heterosexual, as one?

[quote=””] And for the record, yes, I'm celibate. I may live out my days like this, but changing that status is not a priority.

[/quote]

While I myself am also probably A-sexual, the natural law goes against us as much homosexuals (promiscuous or not!) as we don’t procreate. Also, it’s a rare view to hold that sex is nothing or not worth the bother.
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