What if America did not join WWII?

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Mrsbeemccormick
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What if America did not join WWII?

Postby Mrsbeemccormick » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:58 pm

So what would it be like if there were no pearl harbor,if the us did not join WWII? would the jews be extinct? what are ur views? :timmy:
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby Big-Will » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:23 pm

No Pearl Harbor would mean the Japanese would not have attacked, which would mean the U.S. would have stayed out of the war a while longer. Only the Jews under Hitler's regime would have been extinct - other European Jews would still be around, as well as Russian and American Jews.
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Mrsbeemccormick
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby Mrsbeemccormick » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:28 pm

Big-Will wrote:No Pearl Harbor would mean the Japanese would not have attacked, which would mean the U.S. would have stayed out of the war a while longer. Only the Jews under Hitler's regime would have been extinct - other European Jews would still be around, as well as Russian and American Jews.

ok....you got answers for every thing so,what's the meaning of life?
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby Big-Will » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:41 pm

42
Or 4:20
I'm not really sure. :)
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BRMBug
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby BRMBug » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:49 pm

I say it's Lemon. But that may just be me.
triplemultiplex
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby triplemultiplex » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:54 pm

Mrsbeemccormick wrote:So what would it be like if there were no pearl harbor,if the us did not join WWII? would the jews be extinct? what are ur views? :timmy:

I doubt the United States could've avoided going to war even if the Japanese didn't attack Pearl Harbor on their 7 December 1941 offensive. (Remember, they also bombed Singapore and invaded the Philippines on that same 'day of infamy.)

America's position as the "arsenal of democracy" made American shipping to Great Britain a prime target for Germany. If they hoped to defeat Great Britain, German would have no choice but to attack ships flying the US flag bringing arms to the UK. So the US would've been forced to address the threat of the German navy eventually.

Without the Pearl Harbor attack, I doubt the US could've stayed out of the war for another 6 months. We were trending towards more and more support for the allies in Europe and China. Conflict was inevitable, but the Japanese hastened America's entrance into the war. And in a way, it doomed the Axis Powers to defeat. They weren't as well positioned for a war against the US in the winter of '41-'41.

I think a scarier hypothetical would be, what if Germany had, in the spring of 1941, redoubled it's efforts against Great Britain instead of opening another front against the Soviet Union? The Third Riech would've been a much tougher nut to crack without having that big ol' island off the coast of France to amass an invasion force on.
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termsofuse
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby termsofuse » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:44 pm

I don’t mean to be an ass but…

Other European Jews would still be around…which other European Jews? The ones in Poland? How ‘bout the ones in Spain? We all know how much fun the Jews in the Netherlands had.

Germany invaded Russia and immediately began putting the Jews and Slavs in camps…so the Russian Jews didn’t have that much fun either. In fact the Russians don’t (or didn’t at that time) appreciate the talents of their own Jewish population.

The 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazi regime in Germany (a conservative estimate) were not exclusively residents of Germany. These WERE European Jews and no Jew in Europe was safe; even Jews in North Africa were at jeopardy.

American’s were already in harms way before Pearl Harbor because the German’s were already attacking merchant ships bound for England and Russia. The idea that the US could stay out of the war was a delusional myth.

I do agree with 3x mplx…attacking from the south into Europe would have been very hard to do but we would have assembled in North Africa.

And YES. We all know the answer to the ultimate question is 42 thanks to Deep Thought.
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby Big-Will » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:03 am

termsofuse wrote:Other European Jews would still be around…which other European Jews? The ones in Poland? How ‘bout the ones in Spain? We all know how much fun the Jews in the Netherlands had.

I can only share what I find:

Stalin officially condemned antisemitism in 1919, so the fate of the Jews under his rule were mixed. There were Jews serving in the Red Army, after all.

Didn't I say "only the Jews under Hitler's regime"? Poland was under it for a while, so of course the Jews there were being decimated. Parts of the Soviet Union were also under it for a while, so again the Jews there were being decimated. And the Netherlands were also under it, so again the Jews there were being decimated. Same with France.

Fascist Italy did not willingly cooperate in the Nazi plan to kill the Jews of Europe. Italians generally refused to participate in genocide, or to permit deportations from Italy or the Italian occupation zones in Yugoslavia, Greece, and France to the Nazi extermination camps. Italian military officers and officials usually protected Jews and Italian-occupied areas were relatively safe for Jews. Between 1941 and 1943, thousands of Jews escaped to Italy and Italian-occupied territory from German-occupied territory.

Was Spain under Hitler's regime?
Spain: Jews and other refugees.
During the war, Spain became an unlikely haven for several thousand Jews. They were mainly from Western Europe, fleeing deportation to concentration camps from occupied France, but also Sephardic Jews from Eastern Europe, especially in Hungary. Trudy Alexy refers to the "absurdity" and "paradox of refugees fleeing the Nazis' Final Solution to seek asylum in a country where no Jews had been allowed to live openly as Jews for over four centuries."

So I stand by my previous statement - only the Jews under Hitler's regime (including the Occupation) would be extinct, and other European Jews would still be around. If Hitler's regime had expanded further though, then there would have been few European Jews left.
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ShaneHaughey
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby ShaneHaughey » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:07 am

Well, we know America would have joined eventually, but I'll try to answer the question anyway:

1- Germany would not have won the war, contrary to popular belief. The Soviet War Machine would have eventually 'liberated' Europe from the Nazis. In the long run, you're looking at a far darker cold war.

2- The possibility of Japan going unopposed in the Pacific until much later, after the war in Europe was no longer in doubt. When and if America and Japan went to war, the USSR might never have joined. The likely place where they might have fought the Japanese would have been in Korea, China, and southeast Asia while America also attacks. The war would not be lost by America, but the growing strength of the Japanese army and navy would have made the war tough, as tough if not more so than what happened in RL.

3- If England survives the war, they are even in worse shape than they war in RL.

4- Nations that looked to America for help will have turned to the USSR, which means increased Soviet influence on all continents.

5- Whether or not Israel would have been founded in 1948 is dubious; what is not up for debate is that the events in the Middle East would have been very different, as it is likely Israel may have been communist.

6- The Germans are able to deploy in larger in larger numbers many technologies and weapons systems that saw limited use or failed to come around. This means the Soviets would adapt and by the end of the war you would have seen jet fighters, helicopters, and many other weapon systems fielded in large enough numbers to make a difference. Soviet weapon technology will be way ahead of the Americans, and will have fielded the atomic bomb before or around the time of the American usage during the Pacific War, which goes into the late 40s. The resulting arms race is a joke; the Soviets have the economy of Europe, a fully communist China by the end of WWII in this timeline, the Middle East, Africa, and itself.

7- More Jews would have died, but we still aren't talking total extinction.

8- Post-war Germany would have been the site of many horrors.

9- America's global influence is far less, while the Soviet influence is far more. The resulting UN is little more than a sock puppet of the USSR.

10- If and when the USSR collapses in this timeline, global chaos follows.
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby gtaca2005 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:28 am

ShaneHaughey wrote:Well, we know America would have joined eventually, but I'll try to answer the question anyway:

1- Germany would not have won the war, contrary to popular belief. The Soviet War Machine would have eventually 'liberated' Europe from the Nazis. In the long run, you're looking at a far darker cold war.

2- The possibility of Japan going unopposed in the Pacific until much later, after the war in Europe was no longer in doubt. When and if America and Japan went to war, the USSR might never have joined. The likely place where they might have fought the Japanese would have been in Korea, China, and southeast Asia while America also attacks. The war would not be lost by America, but the growing strength of the Japanese army and navy would have made the war tough, as tough if not more so than what happened in RL.

3- If England survives the war, they are even in worse shape than they war in RL.

4- Nations that looked to America for help will have turned to the USSR, which means increased Soviet influence on all continents.

5- Whether or not Israel would have been founded in 1948 is dubious; what is not up for debate is that the events in the Middle East would have been very different, as it is likely Israel may have been communist.

6- The Germans are able to deploy in larger in larger numbers many technologies and weapons systems that saw limited use or failed to come around. This means the Soviets would adapt and by the end of the war you would have seen jet fighters, helicopters, and many other weapon systems fielded in large enough numbers to make a difference. Soviet weapon technology will be way ahead of the Americans, and will have fielded the atomic bomb before or around the time of the American usage during the Pacific War, which goes into the late 40s. The resulting arms race is a joke; the Soviets have the economy of Europe, a fully communist China by the end of WWII in this timeline, the Middle East, Africa, and itself.

7- More Jews would have died, but we still aren't talking total extinction.

8- Post-war Germany would have been the site of many horrors.

9- America's global influence is far less, while the Soviet influence is far more. The resulting UN is little more than a sock puppet of the USSR.

10- If and when the USSR collapses in this timeline, global chaos follows.

Good point.
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby marvel_freak_42 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:40 am

I can't ponder America NOT being in WWII. I think the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was inevitable, as they were a military enterprise that wanted to expand its empire as much as possible, and the Pacific islands were a good way to intensify its potency.
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby Mrsbeemccormick » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:03 pm

yes,america probably would have joined the war, but, as you can see, the name of my post is 'what if america did NOT join WWII' so you guys,what if we didn't?
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby termsofuse » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:50 pm

Sorry about the misrepresentation of what you said Big-Will. However I will still stand by what I said. No Jew in Europe was safe.

The treatment of the Jews by the Franco government was not a happy time for the Jews. Basically, “Jews only deserved protection if they were of economic benefit to Spain.” Spain did not become a haven for displaced Jews from other European countries. Hell, the United States refused to accept Jewish refugees. As for Spain: A very small number, less than 40,000, actually entered Spain during the war and only a very small portion remained. They were allowed because they were passing through to Portugal. Portugal was allowing them with the idea that they would be shipped out to other countries…anywhere but here!

At this point in history there are many apologists abroad in the world who want to say that the Spanish and Italian governments, during World War II, were not as bad as the Nazis of Germany. That is probably true with regard to the Jews but what did the Italians do to the Ethiopians? (Marvin knows). Any nation would want to distance itself from the profoundly monstrous actions of the German government during those years. Be that as it may, the actual story of what happened to the Jews is well recorded and sifting the truth from the spin can be done; it just takes some effort.
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby HellStrykeXL » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:26 pm

I don't think there would've been any way NOT to join, but what I do know is that if we didn't join, the whole world would likely be under NAZI rule, but I don't know if we would see a cold war between divisions of the new world order or what.

For sure, we would be a little behind technologically due to the lack of incentive for building the first A-bomb. The resulting progress after that first test in other fields of nuclear research would probably just take place later, so it's hard to say for sure how things would turn out.

I think we can all agree though that it's a good thing we did intervene at any time in the first place.
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Re: What if America did not join WWII?

Postby termsofuse » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:21 am

Shane-O wrote:
1- Germany would not have won the war, contrary to popular belief. The Soviet War Machine would have eventually 'liberated' Europe from the Nazis.

I do agree with this but…

Did Japan and the Soviets fight during WWII? YES! In 1939 in Manchuria.

The Soviets had been bitter opponents of the Japanese ever since the Japanese achieved an upset victory over the Russians in the Russo-Japanese War that lasted from February 1904 ‘til September 1905.

The Japanese had invaded Manchuria and made it a puppet state of Japan called Manchukuo. This brought them in contact with the Soviets. Between May and August of 1939 the Soviets kicked Japanese ass but ended the combat when Germany invaded Poland. The Soviets, buddies with Hitler at the time, had agreed to carve up Poland together. The Soviets wanted to end the fighting with Japan so they could concentrate their efforts on Poland.

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