Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

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CaptainCameron
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby CaptainCameron » Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:59 am

As much as I was pulling for Georgia, you are not correct. Russian peacekeepers were killed during the shelling of Tskhinvali.

Now, is anyone up for analysing the military situation, or did I interrupt the Bush Hate train? :lol:
gtaca2005
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby gtaca2005 » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:12 am

CaptainCameron wrote:As much as I was pulling for Georgia, you are not correct. Russian peacekeepers were killed during the shelling of Tskhinvali.

Now, is anyone up for analysing the military situation, or did I interrupt the Bush Hate train? :lol:

Hating Bush is good for your health. :wink:

(Trust me, living in America, if you DON'T hate Bush, you are hated. Well, not hated, but you will be in the minority.)

(Personally, I hate his actions and judgment. If you think he did any of this intentionally, then you are blind.)

Well, ignore me, get back to the topic. :wink:
"It's not Jesus.... It's a portal monster." - SuperiourSavior
Pip Tweek
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby Pip Tweek » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:53 am

I think the topic should be broad enough to consider any and all reactions to the situation.

It's not just blind Bush-bashing to consider the White House's official statement about it, which basically was that invading a sovereign nation is "unacceptable in the 21st century."

Taking the fact that Saddam Hussein was, in fact, a brutal dictator and generally not a nice guy out of the equation, what's left is one country who invaded a sovereign nation and removed its established power chastising another country for attempting to do...pretty much the exact same thing.

The only difference in the statement is that Georgia is a democratic nation.
CaptainCameron
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby CaptainCameron » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:00 am

Pip Tweek wrote:I think the topic should be broad enough to consider any and all reactions to the situation.

It's not just blind Bush-bashing to consider the White House's official statement about it, which basically was that invading a sovereign nation is "unacceptable in the 21st century."

Taking the fact that Saddam Hussein was, in fact, a brutal dictator and generally not a nice guy out of the equation, what's left is one country who invaded a sovereign nation and removed its established power chastising another country for attempting to do...pretty much the exact same thing.

The only difference in the statement is that Georgia is a democratic nation.

My point is that basically, except for the first few posts and TMX, if someone hadn't know about the war they'd think that Bush was just as involved as everyone else. Quite frankly, right now, what Estonia, Italy, France, and Poland have said and done matters more to me than what Bush says, yet has there been an ounce of discussion here about them? No. There are a lot of countries in this world, and quite a few of them matter more in this scenario than America. Hell, the name of the Georgian president hasn't even been said here, and his damn nation was the one involved! It's just funny how any topic where Bush says anything becomes a topic about Bush. There are countries besides America and leaders besides Bush.

Image
- Knocked out Russian tank.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b26_1218094003
- Some war footage.

As you know, the war is basically over. Reports of shelling continue, but it has lessened and a deal has been inked.
Levani
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby Levani » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:25 pm

As much as I was pulling for Georgia, you are not correct. Russian peacekeepers were killed during the shelling of Tskhinvali.

I didn't say that russian peacekeepers were not killed.but it happened 1 and half days later,when russian airforces started bombing cxinvali.at least thats what they said on tv.
right now there is information,that russian army is moving deeper,getting close to tbilisi.anyway,what most people think here is that,if america wanted to help,they could easily put american peacekeepers in south ossetia,while georgian army was controling whole territory.then russians would not dare to attack,and conflict would have been solved in a diplomatic way.now its too late
CaptainCameron
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby CaptainCameron » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:50 pm

Levani wrote:
As much as I was pulling for Georgia, you are not correct. Russian peacekeepers were killed during the shelling of Tskhinvali.

I didn't say that russian peacekeepers were not killed.but it happened 1 and half days later,when russian airforces started bombing cxinvali.at least thats what they said on tv.
right now there is information,that russian army is moving deeper,getting close to tbilisi.anyway,what most people think here is that,if america wanted to help,they could easily put american peacekeepers in south ossetia,while georgian army was controling whole territory.then russians would not dare to attack,and conflict would have been solved in a diplomatic way.now its too late


Ten russian peacekeppers were killed during the initial Georgian attack on the city. Mistake? Probably. Still a good reason for the Russians to come in? Yes.

No side is perfect here, but Russia's true intentions should be very clear by now. Russia has almost never cared about it's own citizens when it comes to fighting the enemy- look at the Moscow theater hostage crisis and the 2004 Beslan school siege. Hundreds of hostages killed, very few of them by the terrorists. In the school siege, they used APCs, tanks, flamethrowers, rockets...there was no intention of hostage rescue. It was about killing the terrorists.

Moscow's intention from the start was to engage and destroy the Georgian military to the extent that it couldn't stop them from making South Ossetia and Abkhazia into federal republics. Wait for a suitable pretext...then go ahead with the plan. That has been Russia's strategic thinking for about ten years.

Look at the the Second Chechen War- the weak central government of the Chechens did everything they could to inform Russia of the IIPBs plans to invade Dagestan, but did Russia do anything to stop the invasion? f*ck no. An attack from Chechnya provided a suitable pretext to avenge the humiliation of the first war. Oh, and let us not forget the apartment bombings that the Russians say the Chechens were in charge of, but haven't shown a shred of evidence to support. We just have to believe them and their press, which ranks just ahead of Iran and behind such bastions of press freedoms as Sudan and Pakistan.

Russia has spilled more of it's own citizen's blood than the Chechnan terrorists have. Russia deserves to be called a bear- for it shows no tact.

Russia plays games with her citizens. I never for a second, not a f*cking second, believed Russia was in this for goodwill. Those children were Russian citizens, I didn't see Russian goodwill being extended at the end of the T-72s being used. The Russians certainly were't pumping in goodwill into the theater. They weren't dropping goodwill bombs in Chechnya. They didn't carry out goodwill executions in the theater. I don't see mass goodwill graves.

When they dropped cluster bombs and fired missiles on obviously civilians vehicles and grouping in areas already deemed safe by themselves during the Second Chechen War, they didn't show regard for civilian casualties. When they sent troops through areas they knew were dangerous without any support to provoke the Chechens to fight- knowing full well the convoy would be destroyed- they didn't show compassion for their soldiers.

Russia wants to complain about the South Ossetian capital? In 2003 the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on earth. Hell, they brag about rebuilding 900 buildings- which is like 1/50th or something of the buildings destroyed.

But that's okay. See, the Russian government is in there for all the right reasons. They have no designs on annexing South Ossetia or Abkhazia.

They're in this to save innocent lives.
Because they care.
CMepTb
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby CMepTb » Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:48 pm

Lecani
Levani wrote:I'm from georgia.right now I'm in tbilisi (capital of georgia)
I'll try to explain what really happened,also keep in mind that some of the things I say might not be true,cause I heard it on tv, and some of them will be facts,things I saw with my own eyes or heard it from my friends.
south ossetia is inside georgia,it was considered as conflicted region,since separatists took over control many years ago,when georgia was facing a lot of crisis.separatists were clearly backed by russians,but it was not clear for the world untill now.
on 7th august our president made a statement.he was asking separatists to cease fire and stop attacking civilians in south ossetian villages.he gave them 3 hours to stop and said that how painful for him it might be during this 3 hour he ordered our police not to fire back,also so called russian peacekeepers were not responding on any of this violence.
after this georgian military started attacking.they took over all the villages and finally central city cxinvali in one night.all this time there was not one single russian peacekeeper harmed.
after that suddenly russians started attacking,they used air forces (we never did) and destroyed city cxinvali so badly that there was not one building left.their excuse was,that a lot of people living in south ossetia have russian citizenship.
now imagine, during war in chechnia if americans gave all the chechnians,american citizenship illegally and use it as an excuse to start war against russians.something similar happened here.
later russians started bombing every single city in georgia.they say,they only bomb military bases but,thats not true.my friend is from gori and her house is burned.
they also bombed several places in tbilisi.military airport and they dropped bombs near international airport,destroying the road and causing panic.
russias ultimatum was for georgia to pull out all the troops from south ossetia which is done,but they wont stop attacking.
today russian president medvedev had a meeting with french president sarkozy.they came to an agreement to cease fire.but even after that meeting,russians keep bombing our citys.

You are so full of crap! I never for a second believe that it's Russia who started all this. It's that coward Saakashvilly. I laughted my self off when I saw that report, whaen he craped his pants when he saw some plane... It's your countrys goverment is brainwashing its citizens...

CaptainCameron, you're wise... and I respect you for that. It is so damn good to know that there are people who understand Russia, and doesn't start throw sh*t at it like everyone does. Your last phrase touched me.
I'm a russian (but live in Lithuania)... and I have to say (about Russia not carrying about its citizens) that it's pretty much true, and it's sad to admit...
Michaeloptv
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby Michaeloptv » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:27 pm

I find it sad that the United States has to get involved in this. Their sending Conderezza Rice to France to try easier negoiations.

I complement the people of Georgia for wanting independence, however, Russia is just too powerful of a country. They at times can be more powerful than owr troops.

Bush should just mind his own business.
Then again, Russia must Cease-fire because this has gone on for too long.

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Levani
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby Levani » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:07 am

CaptainCameron wrote:Ten russian peacekeppers were killed during the initial Georgian attack on the city. Mistake? Probably. Still a good reason for the Russians to come in? Yes.

No side is perfect here, but Russia's true intentions should be very clear by now. Russia has almost never cared about it's own citizens when it comes to fighting the enemy- look at the Moscow theater hostage crisis and the 2004 Beslan school siege. Hundreds of hostages killed, very few of them by the terrorists. In the school siege, they used APCs, tanks, flamethrowers, rockets...there was no intention of hostage rescue. It was about killing the terrorists.

Moscow's intention from the start was to engage and destroy the Georgian military to the extent that it couldn't stop them from making South Ossetia and Abkhazia into federal republics. Wait for a suitable pretext...then go ahead with the plan. That has been Russia's strategic thinking for about ten years.

Look at the the Second Chechen War- the weak central government of the Chechens did everything they could to inform Russia of the IIPBs plans to invade Dagestan, but did Russia do anything to stop the invasion? f*ck no. An attack from Chechnya provided a suitable pretext to avenge the humiliation of the first war. Oh, and let us not forget the apartment bombings that the Russians say the Chechens were in charge of, but haven't shown a shred of evidence to support. We just have to believe them and their press, which ranks just ahead of Iran and behind such bastions of press freedoms as Sudan and Pakistan.

Russia has spilled more of it's own citizen's blood than the Chechnan terrorists have. Russia deserves to be called a bear- for it shows no tact.

Russia plays games with her citizens. I never for a second, not a f*cking second, believed Russia was in this for goodwill. Those children were Russian citizens, I didn't see Russian goodwill being extended at the end of the T-72s being used. The Russians certainly were't pumping in goodwill into the theater. They weren't dropping goodwill bombs in Chechnya. They didn't carry out goodwill executions in the theater. I don't see mass goodwill graves.

When they dropped cluster bombs and fired missiles on obviously civilians vehicles and grouping in areas already deemed safe by themselves during the Second Chechen War, they didn't show regard for civilian casualties. When they sent troops through areas they knew were dangerous without any support to provoke the Chechens to fight- knowing full well the convoy would be destroyed- they didn't show compassion for their soldiers.

Russia wants to complain about the South Ossetian capital? In 2003 the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on earth. Hell, they brag about rebuilding 900 buildings- which is like 1/50th or something of the buildings destroyed.

But that's okay. See, the Russian government is in there for all the right reasons. They have no designs on annexing South Ossetia or Abkhazia.

They're in this to save innocent lives.
Because they care.

it was completely different situation in Chechnia,I'm sure you understand that,I'll just mantion it.
chechnia was considered as region of russia and they wanted to be independent.I think they were getting a lot of help from muslim countries too.
russians completely destroyed chechnia and I dont remember if they ever mantioned that most of the civilians living in chechnia had russian citizenship.

I don't understand why russians complain about cxinvali either.it was fairly damaged by georgian army,yes.but when russian air forces started bombing,cxinvali was no more.

you can still argue whether russia had right to help south ossetia or not,but one thing is certain.they had no right to cross conflicted region and start invading georgia.right now russian armies are inside georgian cities.Gori (central city of region kartli),zugdidi(central city of region megrelia) kutaisi (central city of region imereti), poti and senaki.
Its not that hard to find out whos agressor.small country georgia,or giant russia who tries to swallow georgian regions, abkhazia and south ossetia.also for europe only way to get oil and gas without dealing with russians,is through Georgia.

right now we have almost 20 thousand refugees from south ossetia and they are getting help in tbilisi.me and my friends also gave them clothes and some other stuff they might need.I really don't understand what kind of genocide russia is talking about.
one russian user here, mantioned brainwashed georgians.I don't know if I'm brainwashed or not,but what is going on in russia right now,reminds me of a joke about Soviet Union.I'll try to translate it in english...

American journalist asks Russian journalist,how come they don't have protestors in russia,unlike united states!russian journalist tells him,its because people are happy here.American journalist wont believe him,so they went to one factory to check it out.American tells russian workers that,they are going to have lower salary.russian workers cheered and looked happy,then he tells them,that they wont have salary at all and they have to work for nothing.workers cheered again.now american gets really pissed off and tells them,that tomorrow all of them will be hanged.suddenly one of them raised his hand.american was really happy that finally someone was going to protest.and this worker asks:
,,should we bring the ropes or goverment will take care of it?"
Mothy
Posts: 7
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby Mothy » Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:38 am

NEVER HEARD OF RUSSIA AND GEORGIA :wink:
CaptainCameron
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:15 pm

Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby CaptainCameron » Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:01 am

Levani wrote:
CaptainCameron wrote:Ten russian peacekeppers were killed during the initial Georgian attack on the city. Mistake? Probably. Still a good reason for the Russians to come in? Yes.

No side is perfect here, but Russia's true intentions should be very clear by now. Russia has almost never cared about it's own citizens when it comes to fighting the enemy- look at the Moscow theater hostage crisis and the 2004 Beslan school siege. Hundreds of hostages killed, very few of them by the terrorists. In the school siege, they used APCs, tanks, flamethrowers, rockets...there was no intention of hostage rescue. It was about killing the terrorists.

Moscow's intention from the start was to engage and destroy the Georgian military to the extent that it couldn't stop them from making South Ossetia and Abkhazia into federal republics. Wait for a suitable pretext...then go ahead with the plan. That has been Russia's strategic thinking for about ten years.

Look at the the Second Chechen War- the weak central government of the Chechens did everything they could to inform Russia of the IIPBs plans to invade Dagestan, but did Russia do anything to stop the invasion? f*ck no. An attack from Chechnya provided a suitable pretext to avenge the humiliation of the first war. Oh, and let us not forget the apartment bombings that the Russians say the Chechens were in charge of, but haven't shown a shred of evidence to support. We just have to believe them and their press, which ranks just ahead of Iran and behind such bastions of press freedoms as Sudan and Pakistan.

Russia has spilled more of it's own citizen's blood than the Chechnan terrorists have. Russia deserves to be called a bear- for it shows no tact.

Russia plays games with her citizens. I never for a second, not a f*cking second, believed Russia was in this for goodwill. Those children were Russian citizens, I didn't see Russian goodwill being extended at the end of the T-72s being used. The Russians certainly were't pumping in goodwill into the theater. They weren't dropping goodwill bombs in Chechnya. They didn't carry out goodwill executions in the theater. I don't see mass goodwill graves.

When they dropped cluster bombs and fired missiles on obviously civilians vehicles and grouping in areas already deemed safe by themselves during the Second Chechen War, they didn't show regard for civilian casualties. When they sent troops through areas they knew were dangerous without any support to provoke the Chechens to fight- knowing full well the convoy would be destroyed- they didn't show compassion for their soldiers.

Russia wants to complain about the South Ossetian capital? In 2003 the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on earth. Hell, they brag about rebuilding 900 buildings- which is like 1/50th or something of the buildings destroyed.

But that's okay. See, the Russian government is in there for all the right reasons. They have no designs on annexing South Ossetia or Abkhazia.

They're in this to save innocent lives.
Because they care.

it was completely different situation in Chechnia,I'm sure you understand that,I'll just mantion it.
chechnia was considered as region of russia and they wanted to be independent.I think they were getting a lot of help from muslim countries too.
russians completely destroyed chechnia and I dont remember if they ever mantioned that most of the civilians living in chechnia had russian citizenship.

I don't understand why russians complain about cxinvali either.it was fairly damaged by georgian army,yes.but when russian air forces started bombing,cxinvali was no more.

you can still argue whether russia had right to help south ossetia or not,but one thing is certain.they had no right to cross conflicted region and start invading georgia.right now russian armies are inside georgian cities.Gori (central city of region kartli),zugdidi(central city of region megrelia) kutaisi (central city of region imereti), poti and senaki.
Its not that hard to find out whos agressor.small country georgia,or giant russia who tries to swallow georgian regions, abkhazia and south ossetia.also for europe only way to get oil and gas without dealing with russians,is through Georgia.

right now we have almost 20 thousand refugees from south ossetia and they are getting help in tbilisi.me and my friends also gave them clothes and some other stuff they might need.I really don't understand what kind of genocide russia is talking about.
one russian user here, mantioned brainwashed georgians.I don't know if I'm brainwashed or not,but what is going on in russia right now,reminds me of a joke about Soviet Union.I'll try to translate it in english...

American journalist asks Russian journalist,how come they don't have protestors in russia,unlike united states!russian journalist tells him,its because people are happy here.American journalist wont believe him,so they went to one factory to check it out.American tells russian workers that,they are going to have lower salary.russian workers cheered and looked happy,then he tells them,that they wont have salary at all and they have to work for nothing.workers cheered again.now american gets really pissed off and tells them,that tomorrow all of them will be hanged.suddenly one of them raised his hand.american was really happy that finally someone was going to protest.and this worker asks:
,,should we bring the ropes or goverment will take care of it?"

You missed the point of my post completely. I was detailing Russian geopolitical strategy, which this current war fits in nicely with. They know something bad will happen and then position themselves to have some sort of moral high ground.

In other words, since both you and the Russian didn't get the message, Russia sacrificed her own people and soldiers strictly to gain territory. They did it in the run up of the second chchen war, during the war, and during it's aftermath.

So, my point is this: Morally, Russia positions itself to have some sort of high ground. Hence why they've been allowed to go as far as they have. Does this mean they are right? No, as they positioned themselves to draw their own blood in order to justify action.

In other words...
Russian government doesn't care about civilians- see Beslan and Moscow as well as their atrocities during the second chechen war- so their argument about going in to save lives is bullsh*t.

They don't care about their soldiers- see tactics during the wars as well as the terrible heavy-handedness that resulted in commando deaths during the Beslan and Moscow situations- so their claim that they're in this because the peacekeepers was killed is bullsh*t.

In other words, Russian moralistic claims are coming not from a position of moral authority, but of immoral authority. This was planned by Russia from the get-go and Georgia fell for it, hook, line and sinker. South Ossetia and Abkhazia, if they wish it, will join the Russian Federation eventually. If not, they will be fully independent countries. I don't like it and you may not like it, but Mikheil Saakashvili made a stupid, stupid mistake.
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby Big-Will » Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:23 am

Mothy wrote:NEVER HEARD OF RUSSIA AND GEORGIA :wink:

STAY OUT OF THE THREAD THEN! YOU POST HERE AGAIN AND YOU WON'T BE HERE FOR 24 HOURS!
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Just_Jackie
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Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby Just_Jackie » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:00 am

Pip Tweek wrote:I think the topic should be broad enough to consider any and all reactions to the situation.

It's not just blind Bush-bashing to consider the White House's official statement about it, which basically was that invading a sovereign nation is "unacceptable in the 21st century."

Taking the fact that Saddam Hussein was, in fact, a brutal dictator and generally not a nice guy out of the equation, what's left is one country who invaded a sovereign nation and removed its established power chastising another country for attempting to do...pretty much the exact same thing.

The only difference in the statement is that Georgia is a democratic nation.


I love how you are able to take any situation and turn it into a Bush bashing party. Are you able to think about everything else besides how *evil* Bush and corporations are? What's your theory on how George W. Bush is responsible for Pearl Harbor? I was supposed to go visit a friend in Kansas for the time off between now and the beginning of the next semester. However, that got canceled and now I'm going to visit a friend in East Texas instead. Is that Bush's fault? What about Hiroshima? What was Bush's contribution to that? I mean, It happened almost a year before he was born, but the way you have of bringing him up when things have nothing to do with him, I'm sure you have some kind of conspiracy theory how he was involved. Instead of pointing the finger at Bush, how about we focus on the issue, and responsible world leader, at hand.

Anyway, I'm out of town until Tuesday. I'll nit pick more with everyone when I get home.

Adios.
Levani
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:53 pm

Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby Levani » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:18 pm

You missed the point of my post completely. I was detailing Russian geopolitical strategy, which this current war fits in nicely with. They know something bad will happen and then position themselves to have some sort of moral high ground.

I understood what you were saying.I added some other information too,was not exactly replying to everything you said.

pretty scary thing happened an hour ago.georgian journalist was reporting live near gori and during this report he got shot in the hand.right in front of the camera.

Russian's break agreement as usual
14.08.08 13:19

Declaration of U.S. support to Georgia has increased the aggression of Russia and instead of pulling out from the city of Gori, they have reinforced their positions there, ousted Georgian police and journalists from the city.
Levani
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:53 pm

Re: Georgia-Russia(South Ossetian Conflict)

Postby Levani » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:04 pm

In other words...
Russian government doesn't care about civilians- see Beslan and Moscow as well as their atrocities during the second chechen war- so their argument about going in to save lives is bullsh*t.

They don't care about their soldiers- see tactics during the wars as well as the terrible heavy-handedness that resulted in commando deaths during the Beslan and Moscow situations- so their claim that they're in this because the peacekeepers was killed is bullsh*t.

In other words, Russian moralistic claims are coming not from a position of moral authority, but of immoral authority. This was planned by Russia from the get-go and Georgia fell for it, hook, line and sinker. South Ossetia and Abkhazia, if they wish it, will join the Russian Federation eventually. If not, they will be fully independent countries. I don't like it and you may not like it, but Mikheil Saakashvili made a stupid, stupid mistake.

I appreciate that you took your time to study all of this.I'm surprised that you know that much about this issue.if UN members knew as much as you do,they probably would be more than ,,deeply concerned".lets say russia gets away with what they did to georgia and later they do the same thing to ukraine.they are already trying to find an excuse,as it was already mantioned by russian government,that statement of ukraine that they wont allow russian ships to their harbour,means that they are openly helping georgia and it wont be tolerated.they might try to do the same to whole europe and if russia wont be stopped now,it will be too late.
now russia wants to do the same thing to georgia as they did to Czechoslovakia in 1968,when they occupied capital and threw away government.
they don't care for their soldiers because for russia its just numbers,or at best another excuse to invade country.
russia thinks that she owns caucasia and they openly stated before,that they wont allow NATOS army in caucasian countries.
its obvious to me that Saakashvili made a huge mistake.he miscalculated the incapacity of the world and tyranny of russia.

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