Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

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superiorsavior
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby superiorsavior » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:35 pm

And the free will defence explains natural evils and suffering in the animal kingdom how? I'd like to see an explanation of free will that survives in the face of an omniscient and omnipotent god who (knowing exactly which of the infinite number of possible worlds he was creating and exactly what would happen in it) created the world. I'd like to know why god chose to give us 'free will;' why is free will a beneficial thing: why is if good enough to outweigh all the evil in the universe: why is a form of free will that allows for evil supirior to a form of free will that does not allow evil? There are many definitions of free will, and the form that would absolve god of moral responsability would need to be a libertarian freedom, in which people have actual (Rather than seeming) control of their destinies, have the ability to choose between multiple futures, and originate the causual chains acting upon them; otherwise they would not be the ultimate causes of their actions, the ultimate cause of all things (e.g. God) would be.

To admit to randomness in the world (through quantum mechanics) that god could not predict neither does it's intended job of showing we have ultimate free will (randomness =/= free will) and opens up Quintin Smith's "cosmological argument against inteligent design," in which it would be impossible for god to predict the outcomes of the Big Bang, let alone evolution, of Quantum mechanics is random, and it certainly wouldn't be possible for him to have a grand master plan. Even if people DO have free will, god is still responsible (due to his power) for allowing evil events to occur when he could (at no damage to himself) prevent all of them from occuring.

A better discussion than I could ever give of the problem of evil , and how it relates to freedom of will, can be found here. The best argument I've yet found against the POE is that there isn't really such a thing as 'good' people or 'bad' people (due to determinism), in a sense relevant to desert, and as such, god cannot perform injustice, but the problem of unescicary suffering is still active, and (as god appears to need objective morality) this would appear to negate YHWH.

The problem of why god would allow so many people throughout History to not believe in Him is a much more serious question.
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Quintuplets_Father
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby Quintuplets_Father » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:55 am

the key for seeking truth is asking the right questions... i think the author/starter of the thread ment (or should have) "Why WOULD God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?".

and offcourse there are no "good people" and "bad people", we are the outcome of the society, we are shaped by the experiences we encounter during our development. and after all don't we like to state that we are all equal? or do we like it? .. probably only when we find it convenient...
and btw: i broke the dam...
Indica
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby Indica » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:03 am

Yes, I agree that we are a product of our environment (all stimuli that we are subjected to). I think that there is one more thing though and the is genetics. For example most all people have hereditary traits that may or may not make us predisposed to acquire certain traits. This brings us to your real point Quin. Freewill is an illusion. This fact is derived from logic which is derived from mathematics,(the only resource we have that is static) therefore the only demonstrable truth in the Universe.

I just wish more people would think about these things. If we are to move along spiritually, we must be able to rid man-kind of these ideas. I would venture to speculate that you know of that which I am referring ;)
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superiorsavior
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:14 pm

I think that the only reason God could have for acting injustly would be that he was, in some way, imperect; either he was too weak to stop the injustice, he was too limited in inteligence to predict it or to know how to stop it, or not all-good if he doesn't care about justice. Unless of course, injustice is logically impossible to avoid, in which case the farther question of "why create an injust world rather than no world" can be asked.

Glad to find someone not only agreeing with me on the issue of all people being not only born equal, but remaining equal throughout life; remember that, just like our unchosen past expieriences, our genetics, any personality traits inherent in our soul (if we have one), and any random event that we perform are all uncontrolled by us and unchosen, and as such, we are not correctly to be judged, either good or bad, for anything, except as a means of social control ("when we find it convienient").

I would say that, despite this, there is still such a thing as good or bad, one that doesn't apply to people; a world in which more organisms capable of feeling or having preferences suffer or fail to fulfil their preferences is worse than a world in which such organisms are happy or mannage to fulfil their preferences. Therefore, the question can be reformulated as "why would god allow suffering to exist in the world," or the more potent question of, "why would a perfect God create an imperfect world, containing suffering?" In the end the only impact this has on the issue is that god is treating people badly, rather than treating people injustly.

Indica wrote:This fact is derived from logic which is derived from mathematics

True, there are so many arguments for determinism it's pretty much an undeniable proposition now; random numbers are impossible to produce non-artificially, and in logic the principle of bivalance states that at all times every proposition (Even those about the future) have a truth value. The problem for those denying free will is to overcome the objections that Free Will is either (A) a nescicary dellusion that does more good than harm (B) impossible to get rid of and so best lived with or (C) compatable with determinism in some way.

Compatabalism is popular and shouldn't be ignored, though it's generally based on confusion (assumes souls are free from logic's constraints, that proximate causuality is the same as ultimate causuality) or defends a different KIND of freedom; political freedom (the ability to choose to do as one desires) requires only reason and is not dammaged by determinism, whereas the idea of 'desert' and 'moral responsability' for the good or bad things we've done requires Ultimate Controll of our actions (for anything other than simple social control) which we clearly do not have, weather we are determined or random (this is no false diochotomy, for any position with more than a 0% probability is either determined or random).
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bumpa
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby bumpa » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:10 am

who gives a f*ck as long as youre getting away with it
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby bumpa » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:32 am

gosg would": when youre laying in your bed alone, on poison water.. he'd (it) would change your bed room in to a beack or another room.. you'd get a fever<---.. if you were young,......... .. older skin would sluff off .. you'd die, you would remeber it..
dont be talking 'bout death because both of you are dead now
superiorsavior
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby superiorsavior » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:35 am

How many weeks did you go without sleep before you typed that, both posts make absulutly no sense. AND you're not going to get away with it *destroys you utterly with my POKE of doom*
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cartman04
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby cartman04 » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:01 am

superiorsavior wrote:How many weeks did you go without sleep before you typed that, both posts make absulutly no sense. AND you're not going to get away with it *destroys you utterly with my POKE of doom*

That made me laugh.
Fingerbang017
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby Fingerbang017 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:48 pm

Because he can! :P :lol: So long replies for such a simple question...
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superiorsavior
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby superiorsavior » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:03 pm

People have written whole books about this simple question, dedicated years of their life to finding answers to it... a three to five paragraph post is a fairly short response in comparison.

Though your answer does apply to deified Cartman style gods I suppose :p
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Fingerbang017
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby Fingerbang017 » Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:57 pm

Yeah my answer maybe "Cartman style" and the question is truly not so simple but it's simple to me. At least I'm not wasting my time trying to figure out metaphysics. If you want to bump your head on the wall and think it throught go ahead it's your choice I'm just giving my opinion.
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superiorsavior
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby superiorsavior » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:22 pm

Well thought out argument < oppinion?

I wasn't saying you were being Cartman Style, I was just saying that only a 'God' like Cartman would be able to be defended by this argument. If you want to worship :cartmancop: then go ahead, you just need a better argument to defend why the god most people worship would let this happen. But that's just my oppinion :p
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby Indica » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:03 am

whereas the idea of 'desert' and 'moral responsability' for the good or bad things we've done requires Ultimate Controll of our actions (for anything other than simple social control) which we clearly do not have, weather we are determined or random (this is no false diochotomy, for any position with more than a 0% probability is either determined or random).



I'm Interested in what you have to say about "morality"

Personally I take a Utilitarian-like point of view, which I believe is the most logical (ie. What is best for the whole is moral.) In conflictual summations, morality is superseded by that of the greater apportionment. The conundrum, of course, being that of the finite perspective of "Causeality".

P.S.
This is quite ironic considering the jest of the topic of this thread. The answer would be, assuming there is a benevolent God and that God's has an infinite perspective of "Causeality", that in fact God doesn't treat bad people well and good people badly.
Yeah, I use drugs. I can do what I waunt, biatch! Yeah, I have sex, and I don't use protection! It's my hot body; I'll do what I waunt! I don't go to school and I kill people! What-evah! I'll do what I waunt!
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby M00ndragon69 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:48 pm

superiorsavior wrote:Well thought out argument < oppinion?

I wasn't saying you were being Cartman Style, I was just saying that only a 'God' like Cartman would be able to be defended by this argument. If you want to worship :cartmancop: then go ahead, you just need a better argument to defend why the god most people worship would let this happen. But that's just my oppinion :p



And there is another arguement. Some people who believe in the Christian God seem to think his personality is very much like Cartman, what with the forcing everyone to worship him or they go to Hell, and basically insisting everything be all about him. Some people believe God is more about love and forgiveness and believe that if someone is a good person they will go to Heaven..So who in that arguement is right?

And yet another arguement would be if God has bad things happen to good people, does he do it so they will be spiritually stronger, or does it happen because God is punishing them for f*cking up in some way?
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Indica
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Re: Why would God treat good people badly and bad people goodly?

Postby Indica » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:42 pm

M00ndragon69 wrote:
And yet another arguement would be if God has bad things happen to good people, does he do it so they will be spiritually stronger, or does it happen because God is punishing them for f*cking up in some way?


First off it's argument and that which you are identifying as arguments are, in fact, questions.

Your first paragraph, well, I just don't have any mental motivation to tear that apart for you. I just don't see the point. If the capacity to fathom were there, yes. When it isn't, well it loses its jocularity.

Stay in school and pay attention. :timmy:
Yeah, I use drugs. I can do what I waunt, biatch! Yeah, I have sex, and I don't use protection! It's my hot body; I'll do what I waunt! I don't go to school and I kill people! What-evah! I'll do what I waunt!

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