Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

A General discussion about everything other than South Park

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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Big-Will » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:51 pm

Hello You wrote:Was it religion that caused chaos or the egomaniacs who use it? There are plenty of non-religious dickheads throughout history who have caused just as much havoc. Some people use religion to justify their reasons or whatever but really, anyone who can kill anyone because of a book is just f*cked in the head, regardless of what book it is.

It's been argued that religion has created more dickheads and egomaniacs than atheism has, and so has created more chaos through them than atheism has.
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superiorsavior
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:04 pm

Forget the question of when a soul comes into a babbie's body in the life cycle, the bigger question is at what point in the course of evolution does a creature first develop a soul? I can see no non-arbitrary way of eciding one person has a soul and another person doesn't, considering the slow progress over millions of years from one spieciese to another. Is there such a thing as 'half a soul' that people who are half way between the common ancestor and modern humans have? Have we got full souls or will our 'more evolved' decendants get more souls?Do the individual body cells have individual souls? If all spieciese have souls, then does that include bacteria and viruses? As viruses are mostly minerals, it's not much of a step from them having souls to pure animism. The notion of the soul is harder to defend than the notion of god, though they're both damnd by the details.

why would God want to create humans anyway?

The 'why' questions regarding a perfect personal creator are the only ones that I've seen to result in theists admiting that divine mystery or faith are the only sollutions. The big question is why a perfect god would create an imperfect world (and this world surely is imperfect) thus introducing imperfection into the universe?
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby MEPT72 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:27 pm

Recommended reading on Religion:
Laurence Iannaccone: Religion and Rationality
Stigma and Sacrifice
Metin Cosgel: Church and State
Law State power and taxation in Islamic History
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Kelly MacCornmac » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:39 pm

superiorsavior wrote:Forget the question of when a soul comes into a babbie's body in the life cycle, the bigger question is at what point in the course of evolution does a creature first develop a soul? I can see no non-arbitrary way of eciding one person has a soul and another person doesn't, considering the slow progress over millions of years from one spieciese to another. Is there such a thing as 'half a soul' that people who are half way between the common ancestor and modern humans have? Have we got full souls or will our 'more evolved' decendants get more souls?Do the individual body cells have individual souls? If all spieciese have souls, then does that include bacteria and viruses? As viruses are mostly minerals, it's not much of a step from them having souls to pure animism. The notion of the soul is harder to defend than the notion of god, though they're both damnd by the details.

What is a soul anyways?

SuperiorMaids wrote:
why would God want to create humans anyway?

The 'why' questions regarding a perfect personal creator are the only ones that I've seen to result in theists admiting that divine mystery or faith are the only sollutions. The big question is why a perfect god would create an imperfect world (and this world surely is imperfect) thus introducing imperfection into the universe?

I guess, but alas, people would say to have values like God. Like forgiveness and all that crap that cannot be learned if they lived in a perfect world.
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Re: Atheism, God, and You.

Postby Schliby » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:05 pm

zzyzx wrote:
Schliby wrote:
I need to figure out which way is north, and which way is east, and south, and west... but i can't find a compass...


This is easy:

Daytime: The sun rises in the EAST, so face the sun, and you have EAST. Behind you is WEST. To your left is NORTH, and to your right is SOUTH.

In the Afternoon, the SUN sets in the WEST, behind you is EAST, to your right is NORTH, and to the left is SOUTH

Nighttime: Look for the NORTH STAR in URSA MINOR (The little dipper). That is NORTH. Behind you is SOUTH. The constellations are in the SOUTH. To your right is EAST, to your left is WEST.

Or, using the moon, moonrise is in the EAST. Behind you is West. To your left is NORTH, to your right is SOUTH.

Moonset is in the WEST. Behind you is EAST, to your left is SOUTH, and to your right is NORTH.

Hope this helps



Thank You!!! That is what i needed to know! :D
"Time is a thing we must accept.
The unexpected I sometimes fear.
Just when I feel there's no excuse
for what happens, things fall into place.
I know there is no way to avoid
the pain that we must go through,
to find the other half that is true"
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:07 pm

A soul (like god IMHO) was partially a hypothesis to explain empirical problems (the state of life as opposed to not-life in the case of the soul) and became popular because it appealed to people back then on a psychological level and acted as a means of social control.

I don't think any argument could prove the god of any one particular religious tradition was true, because the most a rational argument can do is show that general things (such as a creator or a perfect being) exist, it cannot prove one tradition. Considering that scientology has about as much empirical evidence as christianity in the form of some biographies and letters, and the other major religious traditions, and interpritations of whatever religious tradition you choose to accept, mean that religion is always untrue.

Of course that doesn't mean it's wrong, I see it as a means of social control and as a helpful crutch for people in times of need; however, there are better crutches that are less infectious and have fewer side effects nowdays, and social control could be seen as a bad thing because it prevents a bad society from changing into a good society (many evil societies throughout history have had strong senses of social control) plus there are better means of social control available nowdays, and fora lot of people not all social control is morally acceptable.

Is it intrinsicly immoral to hold an unjustifed belief?
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby MEPT72 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:21 pm

Personally I think of religion as a rational normal Meta-credence good, but that's just me.
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:03 pm

(I wish I could sell things that I can't even proove exist to hordes of lonely, grieving, confused and otherwise vulnerable people. I need to increase my pursuasion skills somehow. Does any religion do a "Pay one hundred pounds for a meta-credence good in the form of an increase in your pursuasive marketing skills?")

Religion used to have the meta-credence goods of purpose and meaning to sell people but it's not cutting as much ice now as it used to do as it's difficult to see how religion imposes purpose or meaning onto the world in a non-arbitraty way.

One of the other main meta-credence goods sold by religion is morality; but this good does not need to be sold, for most of us have consciences and those that don't have rational moral theories to guide them, meaning religion is selling us something we already own. Religion cannot provide any logical basis for morality and, imerfect as they may be, our ethical theories are better aproximations of whatever ethical truth exists out there than religious commands. The morality of religion is egtistical hedonism, based on themeta-credence good of paradise paid for by a life of worship, and we all know how irrational an contradictory egoism is.

The strongest objection to religion's monopoly on morality is that religious traditions appear to either explicitly or implicitly (by not condmeining) condone acts of great evil; the only way to 'sift' through the morality of the Bible to find the good from the bad is to use some secular form of morality, which would render religon un-nescicary for morals.

Religious morality has also variously been attacked for; discouraging people from thinking about the moral implications of actions before perfrming them by giving the seemingly clear cut moral guidelines, which could lead to blindness regarding morality: moral progress is prevented by the authoritative and absolute nature of the commands: ascentist religious values prevent people are prevented from experiencing the beauty, love and pleasure of the world and thus from expieriencing the good life: societal progress which leads to moral progress is hampered by it's attacks on rationality and science: it's rules are often obtuse, arbitrary and victimless: the clergy are given positions of power which can corrupt them: and religious societies do not seem substantially less corrupt or immoral than irriligious ones, in fact the oppiosite seems true.
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby MEPT72 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:04 pm

Religion is ultimately a choice, there is no proof in the existence of a god, no proof against. Religion seems to be a symptom of a human trait though because even nonreligious people tend to be religious in non-orthodox ways.
There's a statism.
Religious Environmentalism
General Mysticism (typically focused on the far east)
Religious anti-theism (having unfounded and baseless beliefs about how the world would be with out religion, like assuming with out religion there'd be peace in the world.
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Re: Atheism, God, and You.

Postby M00ndragon69 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:19 pm

Schliby wrote:
Hey, great to meet you, I am pagan. I have been practicing magick since I was 18.


Wow, i didn't expect to meet a pagan, let alone someone who practices magick, i've seen you on the boards before, but i never really met you... Hei!

I need to figure out which way is north, and which way is east, and south, and west... but i can't find a compass...



I have been here for a few years. I am surprised there aren't more pagans or Wiccans or people who practice some form of magick. I know tons of people like that in my area, and I would say most of them seem to like South Park. But I guess they are too busy with myspace and WarCrack to come and post here.

So how did you get interesting in practicing magick?
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Pip Tweek » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:27 pm

^^ This might sound like a stupid or provocative question (it's not meant to be) but what benefit do you derive from practicing magick?
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Re: Atheism, God, and You.

Postby Schliby » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:42 pm

M00ndragon69 wrote:
Schliby wrote:
Hey, great to meet you, I am pagan. I have been practicing magick since I was 18.


Wow, i didn't expect to meet a pagan, let alone someone who practices magick, i've seen you on the boards before, but i never really met you... Hei!

I need to figure out which way is north, and which way is east, and south, and west... but i can't find a compass...



I have been here for a few years. I am surprised there aren't more pagans or Wiccans or people who practice some form of magick. I know tons of people like that in my area, and I would say most of them seem to like South Park. But I guess they are too busy with myspace and WarCrack to come and post here.

So how did you get interesting in practicing magick?


well... bruce dickinson, the lead singer of one of my favorite band loves aleister crowley. So i read aleister crowley's autobiography. I was intrigued by the occult and magic so i started to look into the subject. As i did i found out some things about pagan and wiccan religions. I looked into them and accepted some of the pagan point of views and beliefs. I then really got into looking up magick and the occult. I found a website run by a man who calls himself puzuzu. His website is what i have been learning from.
"Time is a thing we must accept.
The unexpected I sometimes fear.
Just when I feel there's no excuse
for what happens, things fall into place.
I know there is no way to avoid
the pain that we must go through,
to find the other half that is true"
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Quintuplets_Father » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:47 pm

too bad the original topic was lost... talking about "Atheism, God and Me (You)" (a good title)and talking about "Religion" (i am already bored) are so different things... also being unable to keep an objective exchange of arguments decreases the value of the conversation.

dont take such discutions so personal, these are questions which people dealed with for a long time before us.


"Religion" is about the group.
"God" is about the individual.

sure not religions are the reason for the wars in the world.. religions are only tools, playing their part in the whole game. wars will be over when the human way of thinking will not allow corrupt religions (and others) to work, and religion itself (as a social manifestation) will be obsolete.

merging symbols misleads the the mind hungering for answers, forcing it to squeeze into the pipe that leads to the final "accepted" point of view.

thinking of God through religion (which any devoted faithful should agree it's made by man {i know.. i know.. save it}) ==> fail.

you dont have to agree...
and btw: i broke the dam...
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:13 pm

It's a myth that religion's truth can neither be false or true, for what religion proposes (That god/souls/heaven exist) are all empirical claims. As I said earlier, it's impossible to poove ANY claim about the world to a degree of certainty (we can never proove that the external world exists to 100% certainty, nor to disproove the claim that "this dog is god" as shown in the picture below!) but it's certainly possible to come to a justified conclusion on the basis of the avaible evidece. The evidence does not proove either a perfect being or a personal creator and neither of these things add explanatory value to the universe (as I said before, I find it hard to see what god adds to morality, meaning, order, complexity, etc.) and the buren of proof is arguably against those claiming that a god exists and as such the only justified belief is that god does not exist. The god of any particular religious tradition must compete with every other god if it is an exclusive religious tradition, and every other interpritation of that god and religion's teachings, so the probability of any one interpriation of any one god is so small as to be infantismal.

Image

The difference between dogmatic codes of belief and free thinking metaphysics and ethics are clear, and the former generally are generally addopted by (or lead to) less educated and more violent individuals than the latter. This does not mean that theism is a bad thing; it's possible to be a theist and non-dogmatic. Dogmatic belief in politics, religion, a particular theory, anything, are all seemingly negative.

Is it a coincidence that the only beings with an immagination are the only beings with religion? Recent studies suggest a means for religious thought's evolutionry origin, though this doesn't disPROOVE their truth it certainly detracts from them.
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby M00ndragon69 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:24 pm

Pip Tweek wrote:^^ This might sound like a stupid or provocative question (it's not meant to be) but what benefit do you derive from practicing magick?



Well that depends on who you are talking to..Some people feel it gives them a sense of empowerment, like it makes them feel like they are in control of their lives and not at the mercy of other people or forces, they can work spells and use visulizations to create the changes they want in their lives. Some pagans ( like people who practice the Norse or Celtic traditions) feel it helps them connect to their the culture their ancestors were a part of. Many people also practice magick to solve problems in their lives that they can't easy solve on their own. Like eight years back there was this creepy guy who was sexually harrassing me, not at a job, he was a friend of the rest of my friends and no one really believed he was as bad as he was. And because he and I rode the bus for transportation it was hard to avoid him. He made me uncomfortable enough that I worked a spell to get him away from me, and he soon ended up moving out of state. He hasn't been around me since. There are other things I could bring up to, but it is kind of personal.

That guy who calls himself Puzuzu, does his site have a lot of information that has to do with Voo Doo? I might have seen it before online. I got interested in magick for a lot of reasons. I was always interested in mythology since I was a child, and when I got older I also got into horror movies and started listening to rock.There are alot of things related to magick or the paranormal that get talked about in both those media. Ozzy Osbourne and Led Zepplin also had an interest in Aleister Crowley. And the thing that really got me interested in tarot cards and divination was Wes Craven's movie The People Under The Stairs. If you haven't seen that movie, it opens with the main character getting a tarot reading from his older sister.I saw that, and I thought it was interesting, and I wanted some cards of my own. I finally got a deck of tarot cards when I was 15 and they were the Rider Deck, the same deck that I saw in the movie. And that was awesome, except it took awhile for me to learn how to read them. And then when I was 15 and 16, I started meeting people who had some knowledge on the subject of magick, and I found Silver Raven Wolf's book " To Ride A Silver Broomstick" in the library, and learned some thing from it. And since then, I have met many people who are also pagan or practice withcraft and I have learned alot of stuff from reading up on different magick traditions.
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