Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

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Ranius
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Ranius » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:38 pm

what Jewish Pride put in as examples of good and bad... it's fairly good. however, knowing who a god person is a very difficult question. Plato's Nation or State or whatever that book was called has all sorts of examples in it, it's 4-600 pages long in numbered paragraphs and smal print, but the whole debate started over good and bad. i don't want to get into detail since i would most probably mix something up, but in the end i think plato(or socrates) finds that the only good is knowledge and the only evil ignorance. anyway, if you are interested in the debate you may want to read it. it might even open your eyes on many other areas aswell. =)

so, back to absolute religion: what the heck am i? atheist or agnostic? (if you want the quick version jump to * mark)

I never really believed in the church type of God(s), but there is no evidence showing that there is no one god. there was supposed to be mathematical proof, but i can't get a hold of the author or his work and besides, i think i know how you can "conclude" god in maths. more than that, Descartes proved the existence of god through solid logic so there must be something like that. then again, i think i found a loophole in his theory too. =/
I used to think that magic and ghosts are real, but all my recent insights made me think that ghosts are just a product of the marketing system. there were 2 sources i considered plausible, but there is no real basis for that.
i'm still not sure about magic. i would like to know how one "practices" it, like one of the former repliers posted, because the magic i know and study is based on science, yet, what else would you call per say... moving your hand through a wall? this approach also means that since it's all based on logic and understanding, the "spiritual" matter in any religion is rendered false and some-eastern-ism-with-chakras-and-mantras goes bye-bye. buddhism remains, but that is technically not a religion.

* basically, i am not sure of where to put myself. atheism or agnosticism or something that i don't know about? I acknowledge Descartes' idea, but not whole if it, i acknowlede magic, but again, not the traditional aspects... i don't acknowledge church at all but i don't deny there may be a god...

i'm not making any sense, am i? :timmy:
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Big-Will
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Big-Will » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:50 pm

You're agnostic. An atheist is pretty sure there's no god, and there's a type of atheist for whom a god is inconceivable.
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Kelly MacCornmac
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Kelly MacCornmac » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:21 pm

^No, an Atheist will tell you that at least the idea of God can be conceivable. A nihilist, however thinks that even the idea of God is inconceivable.

That is unless you are talking about God actually existing, then yes I would agree with you. I mean, I know the idea of God, but I do not think it is conceivable because you do not know that existing will help God's perfection in anyway.

Ranius: An Agnostic just simply lacks the belief in God, normally not knowing which side to take. This is why you are Agnostic.
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superiorsavior
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:42 pm

I tried with great difficulty to explain that beliefs, such as religion, are not the teritory of morality but rationality. However, it has to be acknowledged that beliefs can be rational or irrational, justified or unjustified by the evidence; the absolute truth value of a belief is best gathered through rational investigation. However, the question of weather we SHOULD hold a belief is an ethical one, and requires us to investigate the actions and consequences that particular beliefs lead to; holding to the belief that gingers deserve to be kicked on the 20th of november for example is likely to lead to negative consequences and as such it is wrong to hold such beliefs. The same could be said of many religious beliefs (adherence to old testement laws and creationism for example) which lead to negative consequences and others (love thy neighbour) can lead to good consequences and as such some beliefs will be justified and others unjustified. Religions have so much verity within them in terms of interpritation that it's best to assess them in purely rational terms, though there is concern that a moral dualism and certainty at the heart of most major modern religion could lead to negative consequences for all major interpritations.

I believe in the importance of being a good person

Belief or disbelief in God does nothing by itself to alter people's morality, as morality relates to the good and the right rather than to God. Most major conceptions of morality (that which leads to good consequences, that which is just, that which can be applied universally, that which helps one to achieve one's purpose) are neither added to nor detracted from by the existance of God. Divine Law, the idea that what God commands is what is good, is the only area where morality and religion overlap, but it renders morality relitive to god and therefore arbitrary, and presuposes a level of knowledge regarding god's will that we do not posess, and can therefore be safely ignored.

atheist or agnostic?

Agnosticism is a claim about what is knowable, the idea that nothing is provable to a certain extent. Athiesm is the claim that no entitiy befiting the term 'god' exists. Athiesm can be a justified belief within an agnostic system of knowledge, if more evidence points to athiesm than theism. You can be a gnostic athiest too, if you are certain that god does not exist. Athiesm does not need to relate to 'all definitions of god in general' but can relate to particular definitions (a powerful person for most christians is not a god, nor is an imprsonal creative force, and so they are athiests toward these concepts of god). Only you can answer this yourself but you seem smart so you should be able to work out where you stad.
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gtaca2005
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby gtaca2005 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:39 pm

Big-Will wrote:You're agnostic. An atheist is pretty sure there's no god, and there's a type of atheist for whom a god is inconceivable.

Technically, all Atheists are Agnostic. "Atheist" gets to the point, and just states that you believe there is no God.

Agnostics don't take a side, even though they are Weak Atheist without realizing it, like I am.
Last edited by gtaca2005 on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RideTheLightning
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby RideTheLightning » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:23 am

I'm Christian, yet I keep an open mind. I don't believe there is some fluffy place up above Space where people who were once human now have sprouted wings and have halos above their heads. But I do believe in The Bible, meaning I think what The Bible says is to create kind of a heaven on Earth. Obviously not some perfect plushy paradise, but if the average person were to actually read a passage of The Bible and contemplate about it, they'd see that it's not about some elder who traveled all around the world and constructed an ark by himself. You need to see past the ridiculous story of people in Rome slaughtering goats and you'd see that there is some kind of lesson behind the vast majority Bible readings. Mostly every story in The Bible is something along the lines of, "Think about this, now carry it out, and perform it or live it." And if everyone were to do so, there would indeed by somewhat of a heaven on Earth. Now I don't say "JESUS IS LORD OR GO TO HELL!". I believe as long as you are a good person, and follow what The Bible says, even not consciously as an Atheist, you fulfill what God asks you to. I believe every religion or belief is correct, as long as you're a good person. And come on, without The Bible people wouldn't know how to act towards one another, the world would be a sh*t hole.

"No one answer is ever the answer" the world should never become all Atheist or all religious. You need some of both, without religions things would become bad, as in people would not think of The Bible and all of it's teachings, though if everyone were to be a member of a religion, it would cloud up how things really work.
Death Reaper
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Death Reaper » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:10 am

I don't really give a sh*t because i have no religion and i hate were i live because all the people were i live are Christain. IT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!! i do not make fun of other people religion but it can be VERY ANOING. :(
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PicklesNumber1
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby PicklesNumber1 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:40 am

I am a christian. Not the guy at ball games with the sign that says "REPENT OR DIE!", not the guy who gets in your face for not following the letter of the law. I drink, I smoke, I eat fatty foods, I have fun with my life.

I distaste the "Christians" who wont be friends with some people because they smoke, or drink, or swear, or are an atheist. This is because it goes against the very nature of Christianity.

Jesus says to love everyone. Not just other Christians. If you truly want to live like Jesus, go out and befriend some druggies, smokers, drinkers, atheists, Muslims, etc.

Then use your connection with them to passively convert them. Dont get in peoples face, Dont try to shove it down their throat. Just let them know if they ever have any questions, you are there to answer them. And pray for them.
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Quintuplets_Father
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Quintuplets_Father » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:20 pm

George Carlin wrote:Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.
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Michaeloptv
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Michaeloptv » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:53 pm

I am Roman Catholic...


There are too many athiests out there, but in no way will I ever confirm anyone's beliefs....

Kinda too much of a topic for me to get into!! :o
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pdfsmail
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby pdfsmail » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:01 pm

I am Christian (or try to be) and dont believe in shoving it down your throat, unless you want me to.

One thing that I think about is the following:
If the agnostics / atheists are right, then what have I really lost when I die, I won't exist to know about it or mourn over it.... But if the Christians are right, well then everyone knows the outcome if you didnt believe...

I would rather be safe than sorry, but you are entitled to believe what you want

I agree with PicklesNumber1

end of my argument.
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Quintuplets_Father
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Quintuplets_Father » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:42 pm

pdfsmail wrote:I would rather be safe than sorry, but you are entitled to believe what you want.
that can't be called faith... believe what you truly believe, not what you want, not what you find more convenient to do.. it's not a trade, it's not about trying to get the better deal... it's about being fair to yourself and others around. and be more open in such conversations, not like "end of my argument", i like to think that those who are viewing/posting on this thread are all (generally speaking) seekers of truth, and would be glad to see how we can open each other's minds ..

.. right? ... right?!?! ... ... hello ?!.. .. .
and btw: i broke the dam...
pdfsmail
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby pdfsmail » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:04 pm

again... that is my view on religion and how people view it... it is not a trade, and not believing is also a religion (believe that or not) so it is not relevant to say one has no religion.

I do have faith and believe in God, the phrase I used is a thought I like to think about, and if you think about it, in the end everything will boil down to that phrase - regardless of how you look at it. It's just a point, so yea maybe I shouldn't have ended it by saying "end of argument"

but again forcing any religion, whether it is Christianity or atheism on anyone is wrong, I see atheist stuff everywhere, and I ignore it.. I dont make a big deal over it, and try to respect them for what they believe, all i ask is to respect mine in return. If someone asks about my religion, I will tell you.

I believe that religion in some manner is necessary for many people, it helps shape their way of life. but honestly religion isnt supposed to be something for constant argument and debate either (so I contradict my own self typing here lol)
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zzyzx
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Re: Atheism, God, and You.

Postby zzyzx » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:13 pm

zzyzx wrote:
Big-Will wrote:
zzyzx wrote:Science has showed the real birthday of Jesus to be Sept. 4, not Dec. 25.


Whoa, show me the link to that finding! The earliest Christians themselves were divided between late March and September 29 (Michaelmas)


I have always heard Sept. 4. My cursory look at the internet shows Sept. 29:

http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm



Here is an update for the date Jesus was born: June 17th:

Update: I wrote the above quote on page 4 of this thread. Today, Wednesday, 12-10-2008, I got this e-mail from ABC news (I am on their list of what is going to be on each days broadcast of “Nightline”:

Permalink Url: http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/433071/36886874

Also, the actual web page I was reading:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theworldnewser/2008/12/jesus-was-born.html

Summary: Jesus Christ, according to David Reneke as reported on ABC News was born on June 17th, not on December 25th.

-zzyzx
triplemultiplex
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Re: Atheism, God, and You.

Postby triplemultiplex » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:22 pm

zzyzx wrote:
Here is an update for the date Jesus was born: June 17th:


Alright! Let's move Christmas to June so we can get another off day during summer. Screw all that winter traveling bullsh*t. I'd trade a winter holiday for a summer one.
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