Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

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Ranius
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Ranius » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:24 pm

picklesnumber1 wrote:Then use your connection with them to passively convert them.

isn't this... the same as being agressive? it's been on my mind for a very long time. isn't converting someone, even passively, basically forcing them to do it if you look at it from a broader perspective?

i am just saying that by rationally deciding and using a connection you made with a person, don't you basically go out and change the person's beliefs? The "going out to do something" is taking the initiative and that is the same as not giving them a choice in the matter.

To me personally that would seem like being agressive and... unfair towards the other's open freedom of choice. is there a difference in the "conversion" i described and the one you were talking about?
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M00ndragon69
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby M00ndragon69 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:40 am

I am completely against people activly trying to convert other people to their religion. Most pagans do not go out and try to convert other people. I personally feel if someone is meant to adopt my beliefs, they will come to it on their own without being pressured.

I see the tactics people usually use to convert other people to their ways of believing. And I see nothing but them using fear ( the classic example being, "if you dont believe the way we do, you are going to Hell forever"), them talking down to people ( Like the way some people talk about their religion like you have never heard of it, even though it is the main religion in this counrtry, or when other people talk to others like they are retarded for believing in anything that can't be proven wih science) and treating them like they are stupid. And then there is the emotional manipulation. Or in some cases where they person a group is trying to convert is someone they know and see everyday, they shun that person if they don't go along with it. And then there is that thing some religious people do when they come to your house when you are trying to sleep so they can bother you about religion. Seriously there is no excuse for that, any other time ( unless someone is having an emergency) it isn't acceptable to go knock on the door of someone you don't even know. It is f*cking rude.From the point of view of someone like me who is against converting people in the first place, it is all pretty sick, and it is the wrong way to treat people. If someone is meant to follow the spiritual path you follow, they will find their own way to it. Don't push your beliefs on others, just treat other people the way you would want to be treated, and don't let religion get in the way of your relationships with others.
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Quintuplets_Father
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Quintuplets_Father » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:53 am

the only honest thing to do is not trying to make people to think (believe) like you, but trying to open their mind.. also while trying to open your mind aswell, and together to try to reach the answer. you, me, we are all humans.. so we are predisposed to make errors.

you might have been led to the right path by the most enlightened man on Earth, that doesn't mean you will be a same as good teacher for others as he was for you. ..and what makes you think you already reached the final peak of knowledge?!? are you sure you are already there? is life that simple?!?!
Last edited by Quintuplets_Father on Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
and btw: i broke the dam...
M00ndragon69
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby M00ndragon69 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:56 am

PicklesNumber1 wrote:I am a christian. Not the guy at ball games with the sign that says "REPENT OR DIE!", not the guy who gets in your face for not following the letter of the law. I drink, I smoke, I eat fatty foods, I have fun with my life.

I distaste the "Christians" who wont be friends with some people because they smoke, or drink, or swear, or are an atheist. This is because it goes against the very nature of Christianity.

Jesus says to love everyone. Not just other Christians. If you truly want to live like Jesus, go out and befriend some druggies, smokers, drinkers, atheists, Muslims, etc.

Then use your connection with them to passively convert them. Dont get in peoples face, Dont try to shove it down their throat. Just let them know if they ever have any questions, you are there to answer them. And pray for them.



I was thinking you were a nice guy until I read the part about using your connection to passively convert your friends. Someone once tried to do that to me, and it pissed me off. I thought it was very disrespectful of the bitch.If someone is truly your friend, religion shouldn't matter. And a friendship isn't worth jack sh*t if you can't be upfront and honest with your friends. Passively trying to convert someone once they are emotionally attached to you is manipulation, and manipulation isn't being straight forward and honest with your friends. Think about this, what if someone was your friend for along time, but the whole time they were trying to passively convert you to Satanism? How would you feel? If it is such a big deal that all your friends convert and be Christians, so all your friends get into Heaven, why don't you start only hanging out with Christians?

Sorry to be a total bitch, but I have been treated like that before.I think it is disrespectful, and I don't try converting people to my beliefs, as I already said. Someone can say you have to accept Jesus and if you don't you are going to Hell all they want, and I am not going to believe it, it has never felt true to me. I feel as strongly about my beliefs as you probably do about yours, and if someone can't accept me the way I am, f*ck them too.
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PicklesNumber1
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby PicklesNumber1 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:35 am

All passively conversion is is being a good person, acting the way you believe. Thats it. Being yourself. Being a good person and helping those less fortunate.

If people ask why you do all this stuff that most people wouldnt, say its because youre a Christian.

Dont bring it up yourself at all. I also cant stress how important it is to not act like you are better than other people because you do this stuff.



so my question is, How can me, acting like i think i should, not bringing up my religion, not acting better than anyone, piss people off?
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PicklesNumber1
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby PicklesNumber1 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:45 am

Someone once tried to do that to me, and it pissed me off. I thought it was very disrespectful of the bitch.If someone is truly your friend, religion shouldn't matter. And a friendship isn't worth jack sh*t if you can't be upfront and honest with your friends. Passively trying to convert someone once they are emotionally attached to you is manipulation, and manipulation isn't being straight forward and honest with your friends. Think about this, what if someone was your friend for along time, but the whole time they were trying to passively convert you to Satanism? How would you feel? If it is such a big deal that all your friends convert and be Christians, so all your friends get into Heaven, why don't you start only hanging out with Christians?

[/quote]

Actually one of my best friends <i>IS</i> a satanist.

I am truly sorry that you have had a bad experience with religion before, but what im talking about ISNT manipulation. Its Being an example based on how you live, act, and treat people.

I also have alot of problems with the modern day church because most people there seem very manipulative and shady to me.

Example:

I volunteered at a youth group with my church for 3 years. During that time, I started smoking. My youth pastor told me that it was fine, as long as i didnt do it around the kids. Then al of a sudden, i had to stop completely if i wanted to continue helping at my church.

Then, He used his wife to talk to a good friend of mine to see if i was still smoking. His wife told my friend that it wouldnt be a reason to kick me out. So my friend was honest.

The next day i got a call from my youth pastor saying i could help out anymore on account of my smoking.

This is the blatant hypocrisy and manipulation that makes me not trust the church anymore.
Thats right. I drive a YT-1300.

Im a Jesus Freak.
Schliby
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Schliby » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:06 am

hey m00ndragon, i know you are pagan, but what religion are you exactly?
"Time is a thing we must accept.
The unexpected I sometimes fear.
Just when I feel there's no excuse
for what happens, things fall into place.
I know there is no way to avoid
the pain that we must go through,
to find the other half that is true"
M00ndragon69
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby M00ndragon69 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:20 am

Sorry. When you said, "use your connection to passively convert them" it sounded like games certain people play and it didn't sound good.Maybe that wasn't what you mean and you chose your words poorly. But still, I am really not down with people trying to convert other people in any sense. I do try to set a good example, well when I am not at this board anyway because sometimes I am pretty naughty here. I try not to just set a good example as a Pagan, but a good example as a person. I am not perfect, but for the most part I really do try to treat people the way I would want to be treated. Not because they will convert to what I believe, or because of the rule of three, or karma, or because it is what I think the Gods I believe in would like, or so people will pat me on the back for what I should be doing already. But, because I can put myself in other people's shoes, and I know how I would want to be treated if I was them. That is the only real reason to treat other people well.
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M00ndragon69
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby M00ndragon69 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:24 am

Schliby wrote:hey m00ndragon, i know you are pagan, but what religion are you exactly?



Well I am not really a part of any oraganized form of paganism, so I don't know what you would call me. My family is irish, Scottish and Welsh, but I find myself more interested in the Norse pagan beliefs and the Native American beliefs than the Celtic ones.
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Schliby
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Schliby » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:35 am

Oh, i have done a few norse rituals, but i don't practice any celtic stuff. I tend to believe the points of views of the wiccan religion. It is also what i practice most of the time. Along with High Magick, because i'm catholic.
"Time is a thing we must accept.
The unexpected I sometimes fear.
Just when I feel there's no excuse
for what happens, things fall into place.
I know there is no way to avoid
the pain that we must go through,
to find the other half that is true"
zzyzx
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:35 am

Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby zzyzx » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:53 am

There are many denominations of judaism. Many non-jews think there is only one or two denominations of jews. There is orthodox, conservative, reformed, reconstructionist to name a few.

Orthodox a few years ago decreed smoking is banned because to the orthodox, humans are made in the image of G'd, and one doesn't desecrate G'd's image, so one can't harm the image of G'd. Smoking is harmful to health, so smoking is banned to the orthodox. Other denominations do not follow this practice. But to the non-jewish world, it is thought that a jew is a jew. Not true! Tattoos are also not allowed, and neither are piercings because that desecrates the image of G'd.

As to "native Americans" referred to in an above post, who truly are native Americans? When Columbus came to this part of the world, Columbus thought he (Columbus) was in the country of India, hence the name Indians. Later, this part of the world was named for a European and this part of the world was named: America. Now the PC term for Indians is: native americans.

But prior to Columbus, and prior to this land being named America, these "native americans," these "Indians" had a name long before Columbus came here. What was that name? That is the name that should be used. Europeans named these indigent people "Indians" and now "Native Americans." But they had their own name and beliefs. What was that name?
gtaca2005
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby gtaca2005 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:58 am

"It's not Jesus.... It's a portal monster." - SuperiourSavior
zzyzx
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Re: Atheism, God, and You.

Postby zzyzx » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:03 am

zzyzx wrote:
zzyzx wrote:
Big-Will wrote:Science has showed the real birthday of Jesus to be Sept. 4, not Dec. 25.


Whoa, show me the link to that finding! The earliest Christians themselves were divided between late March and September 29 (Michaelmas)


I have always heard Sept. 4. My cursory look at the internet shows Sept. 29:

http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm



Here is an update for the date Jesus was born: June 17th, which confirms with what gtaca2005 just said:

Update: I wrote the above quote on page 4 of this thread. Today, Wednesday, 12-10-2008, I got this e-mail from ABC news (I am on their list of what is going to be on each days broadcast of “Nightline”:

Permalink Url: http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/433071/36886874

Also, the actual web page I was reading:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theworldnewser/2008/12/jesus-was-born.html

Summary: Jesus Christ, according to David Reneke as reported on ABC News was born on June 17th, not on December 25th.

-zzyzx
Frosty_D
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Frosty_D » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:06 am

And therefore, should there be no X-mas?
gtaca2005
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby gtaca2005 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:11 am

Frosty_D wrote:And therefore, should there be no X-mas?

Just proves that Christmas was moved up to gain converts from Pagan religions who celebrate the Winter Solstice.

And to zzyzx:

I know you posted it, but I just thought I'd throw up Olbemann's commentary. :wink:
"It's not Jesus.... It's a portal monster." - SuperiourSavior

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