Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

A General discussion about everything other than South Park

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superiorsavior
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:18 am

Damn nothing has happened on the bbs

If God can change between the old and the new testement times, who's to say he won't change again? Who's to say he hasn't already changed, but decided not to tell anyone this time?

I'll say it again there is no THE ten commandments, there are several lists from different traditions. The fact that the death penalty was proposed for those who didn't keep the sabath day holy pisses me off almost as much as people who try to say that the ten comandments are the basis of all law, when in fact they're a combination of outdated religious rules and useless descriptions of instinctive morality.A good resource on the origin of the ten commandments (biased though it is) argues that; the command against idols was based on a superstion that idols had magic power, and probably refered to all depictions of the human form: as both middle eastern cultures and cultures at the time and those at a simmilar level of development in the world today believed that words coud actually cause black magic to happen, so the "take god's name in vain" commandment: just like any eternal/unchanging law, the command aganst 'stealing' (which most likely meant something more along the lines of kidnaping to be honest) includes wives, who are and always will be the property of their husbands if this is an eternal law.

Honor your father and your mothe

Or be stoned to death. Have you ever 'dishonored' your mother or father? This commandment condones honour killings, when coupled witht he punishment (Which is an integral part of the list, don't pick and choose with scripture).

The ten commandments are immidiately followed by the levitican and duteronomic laws, which include several frankly absurd health warnings and sexual 'crimes', that would be funny if not for the death penalty the LORD (or whoever wrote the bible) calls for them.

I like the thought that im choosing my own actions

It's hard to see how free will outweighs all the suffering christians use it to justify, even if it is good, it's not good enough.

If Hitler really followed the bible, he would not have condoned the breaking of one of the ten commandments

The book of Romans makes a clear distinction beween those in authority and those without power. Hitler had authority, and as such was executing, rather than murdering, the jews. If execution is wrong why does god command it throughout the OT? Many genocides in the OT were justified because the leader said god told him to do it, Hitler used the same excuse, if it worked for the OT rulers, why can't it work for Hitler?

Being a christian is about wanting to FOLLOW god

But remember that ETERNITY is a long time... if it's even POSSIBLE that you'll slip up, you will CERTAINLY sin over that ammount of time.

God wants people to have Faith.

Various criticisms I can't be bothered to summarise. Hope you read some :p

Glad to hear you're trying to think for yourself about this and arn't just following your parents/friends. Good luck :)
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jewish pride
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby jewish pride » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:58 am

Kelly MacCornmac wrote:I see Christians sin all the time... you call that following god?

lol Everyone sins in here (earth) though, it's part of the magic of free will, i think the point is getting it better and better each time

Kelly MacCornmac wrote:God killed the first sons of Eygypt only because the pharoh sinned, so god was basically being a hypocrite.

According to the bible you mean? not everyone who believes in god believes in the bible though, or maybe not all of it, or have different interpretations of it

Kelly MacCornmac wrote:No sin=no fun. It would be really boring there then.

Depends on what you define as sin really, if you are talking about sin according to prudish extremist douchie religious people then I agree
But to my definition of sin, we could very well do without it

Kelly MacCornmac wrote:Honor your father and your mother.-How? By following their rules?

I guess that only applies to parents who actually give a damn about their kids =P

I'm saying this in a non christian point of view, I think the 10 commandments are not supposed to be taken that literally, just general rules that you should do your best to follow, dont lie, stand by your family, respect god's name, etc
Of course you are gonna break them at one point or another, no one is perfect

It's pretty much like what father Maxi said at the end of the red hot catholic love episode, they are rules and stories that teach good stuff and things to live by, only moronic extremists take it that literally
RideTheLightning
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby RideTheLightning » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:17 am

I can guarantee this will be the most subtle and open minded comment ever posted on this thread.

For the world to function at its best, you need a little bit of every religion, including Atheism. Atheism would be one of the most, if not, THE most important, though keep in mind I'm Christian. You need Islam, you need Christianity, you need Judaism, every major religion...with the exception of satanism.

If the whole world were to become one religion, we would never know the real answers. God didn't put us here, it was the big bang, theory of evolution and all of that, if EVERYONE were to say, "NOPE, SORRY, GOD MADE US, JESUS IS LORD" then we wouldn't get to the real answers. But if the whole world were to become atheist, well spiritually we'd all be dying, there would still be wars (instead of religious wars you'd have territorial or wars created by disagreements) war is natural among humans, and the Bible has become a huge source of hope for many.

Think of the messages South Park has even, in Go God Go all religion is eliminated, yet there were still wars, the war on which name is best would be a metaphor for wars on anything else. Or watch Super Best Friends again, the message is you need a little bit of every religion.

People have to start realizing NO one is right and NO one is wrong about religion.
Wii fit man
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby Wii fit man » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:26 am

RideTheLightning wrote:I can guarantee this will be the most subtle and open minded comment ever posted on this thread.

For the world to function at its best, you need a little bit of every religion, including Atheism. Atheism would be one of the most, if not, THE most important, though keep in mind I'm Christian. You need Islam, you need Christianity, you need Judaism, every major religion...with the exception of satanism.

If the whole world were to become one religion, we would never know the real answers. God didn't put us here, it was the big bang, theory of evolution and all of that, if EVERYONE were to say, "NOPE, SORRY, GOD MADE US, JESUS IS LORD" then we wouldn't get to the real answers. But if the whole world were to become atheist, well spiritually we'd all be dying, there would still be wars (instead of religious wars you'd have territorial or wars created by disagreements) war is natural among humans, and the Bible has become a huge source of hope for many.

Think of the messages South Park has even, in Go God Go all religion is eliminated, yet there were still wars, the war on which name is best would be a metaphor for wars on anything else. Or watch Super Best Friends again, the message is you need a little bit of every religion.

People have to start realizing NO one is right and NO one is wrong about religion.

Okay, first off, why are everyone's posts so f*cking long!? But, more importantly, even though I'm a straight atheist, I'm glad you put this up, because It's not the religon itself that causes the war, it's people saying everyone else is wrong. I'm glad there are people like you who are open-minded. :D
effses: Austin confirmed for turbo homosexual
jewish pride
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby jewish pride » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:05 am

I believe in God!

In Kyle and in South Park!

and now, thanks to a slight change of rules on the BBS, I also believe in multiple posting!

Such is my religion, do not oppress me!
JOO POWER
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superiorsavior
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:20 am

I was wondering what seperates a fanboy/fangirl's worship of a character (like jewpride's worship of kyle or shanehaughty'sstan worship) from the worship of the religious for their gods?

with the exception of satanism

What the hell is everyone's beef with satanism? It's basically a toned down form of Randianism... I think christians especially and everyone else misinterprits it based on it's name. Though I've never been a fan of Rand myself. I wonder, when you say 'every major religion,' if you're including ALL the major religions, or just those alive today? Why only the major ones, what truth value does being popular give a cult?
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superiorsavior
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:40 am

Reads jewpride's posts...

*sacrifices cartman at the alter of kyle*
Superior2you
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jewish pride
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby jewish pride » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:02 pm

superiorsavior wrote:I was wondering what seperates a fanboy/fangirl's worship of a character (like jewpride's worship of kyle or shanehaughty'sstan worship) from the worship of the religious for their gods?

No, you have it all wrong SS, Kyle IS God, so it is obviously the same thing. *goes to pray to the Kyle statue* Image

superiorsavior wrote:Reads jewpride's posts...

*sacrifices cartman at the alter of kyle*

Now there is oficially a spot reserved for you in heaven, my son Image [Kyle God speaks]
jewish pride
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby jewish pride » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:04 pm

[If you were a mod or admin, you'd see an interesting post here]

[Not really. But Rule 3 is back, with some clarification. - Big-Will]
superiorsavior
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:20 pm

Is there any meaningful difference between believing in a Deist God and not believing in a Deist god? Remembering that the Deist deity does not perform miraicles, and that any form of direct communication with the deist deity would count as a miraicle... and that it's impossible to tell weather you've been communicating with god or just having a hallucination, even if he did somehow communicate with you... I see no way in which belief in a deist deity could impact on anyone's lives.
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M00ndragon69
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby M00ndragon69 » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:07 am

People have a beef with Satanism because they believe what people say about Satanists having blood orgies and sacrificing babies and such..Basically the same sh*t the same people say about Pagans and Wiccans. And it is the same sh*t people who believed the way they did before them said to justify hanging people as witches and burning people at the stake. And in the 80's people called that sh*t "recovered memories" and with the help of hypnotists and counselors and probably church members they recalled alleged Satanic abuse. Abuse that I have never heard of any proof being found to back up what the victims claimed happened. I might believe a lot of things that science cannot prove, but when someone says their parents molested them, and made them participate in satanic rituals and eat their own babies, they had better be able to produce some proof because those are serious allegations.
I am not a Satanist, but I have read Anton Lavey's "The Satanic Bible" and it doesn't really sound like they are pro human sacrifice. The philosophy of the book leans more towards saying people should act in their own self interest instead of sacrificing everything for other people, and sometimes in people's lives that philosophy is the right one to follow..Not all the time, because then you become a selfish person who ends up alienating everyone around them.But if you are constantly sacrificing everything to make everyone around you happy, you become a doormat and people use you.

As for the fangirl worship things..Why not. Why not worship your favorite characters from South Park or your favorite movies and such as Gods and Goddesses? People almost do already. I not only see South Park fans do it, Harry Potter fans do it, Star Wars and Star Trek Fans do it, Lord of the Rings fans do it, Rocky Horror fans do it, Anime fans do it, and horror fans most definately do it. How many graven images of your favorite characters do you have in your house?
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superiorsavior
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:26 am

If god is defined as 'a being worthy of worship,' what reason is there for every character, both real and fictional, to not be gods? Deserving worship is such a subjective term, it could apply to anyone or anything, while simultaniously not applying to any of them, and if this is the definition of god, anything coould be god (while not being god at the same time). Which makes this definition of god rather worthless. The same meaninglessnes applies to "higher beings" (what counts as "higher"? in what sense?).

Only objective definitions of god (definitions that can in principle be empirically tested) such as the creator of the universe, seem to be meaningful in any objective/ outside the mind sense.
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RideTheLightning
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby RideTheLightning » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:18 am

It seems everyone on this thread has a mind as closed as...a box...or something.

I've said it before and I'll say it again,
I can guarantee this will be the most subtle and open minded comment ever posted on this thread.

For the world to function at its best, you need a little bit of every religion, including Atheism. Atheism would be one of the most, if not, THE most important, though keep in mind I'm Christian. You need Islam, you need Christianity, you need Judaism, every major religion...with the exception of satanism.

If the whole world were to become one religion, we would never know the real answers. God didn't put us here, it was the big bang, theory of evolution and all of that, if EVERYONE were to say, "NOPE, SORRY, GOD MADE US, JESUS IS LORD" then we wouldn't get to the real answers. But if the whole world were to become atheist, well spiritually we'd all be dying, there would still be wars (instead of religious wars you'd have territorial or wars created by disagreements) war is natural among humans, and the Bible has become a huge source of hope for many.

Think of the messages South Park has even, in Go God Go all religion is eliminated, yet there were still wars, the war on which name is best would be a metaphor for wars on anything else. Or watch Super Best Friends again, the message is you need a little bit of every religion.

People have to start realizing NO one is right and NO one is wrong about religion.



And, thus this whole topic is irrelevant. There is no right answer, there is no wrong answer, believe whatever form of whatever you want as long as it is in some way beneficial to humanity. I'd say the most healthy would to either be religious and keep an open mind and acknowledge how the universe really came to be, or to be Atheist and to keep an open mind to religions, beliefs, and faiths.
RideTheLightning
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby RideTheLightning » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:33 am

superiorsavior wrote:If god is defined as 'a being worthy of worship,' what reason is there for every character, both real and fictional, to not be gods? Deserving worship is such a subjective term, it could apply to anyone or anything, while simultaniously not applying to any of them, and if this is the definition of god, anything coould be god (while not being god at the same time). Which makes this definition of god rather worthless. The same meaninglessnes applies to "higher beings" (what counts as "higher"? in what sense?).

Only objective definitions of god (definitions that can in principle be empirically tested) such as the creator of the universe, seem to be meaningful in any objective/ outside the mind sense.


Plain and simple-God shows humans how to live, he does this through The Bible, The Bible, and The Church teach, through all of the intricate and perplexing stories of the impossible, miracles, and all that, comes the lessons, love thy neighbor and be good to one another. This, in turn, enriches everybody's lives. Humans would not know that you are supposed to love and care for each other without things like The Bible to lead them. But then the stories get so out of control, people begin saying, "Well not only is "God" a good leader, he should be the object of worship, he created everything!" THAT is where things start to become trouble. Though this is where atheists can come in, as where there are religious people who deny the everything and say God created everything, there are non religious people to make up for it. So even if it isn't even purposely done, the World is at it's best as possible the way it is. People to find out the real answers, people to keep the stories and the values of The Bible in a civilization that would be lost, cruel, and just plain fallacious are all here. You cannot shift to either side and lose the values, shift to the other and lose the knowledge.

Beliefs can differ from whatever Christian you ask, maybe you ask one and they say, "God is real, but I do acknowledge the big bang, the theory of evolution and all of that", maybe they'll say, "Alright so maybe God isn't real, but does the idea of him really harm anyone? Without God people would have no one to turn to, without God the world would be much more cruel, in all, whether he's real or not doesn't matter because he's changed the world more than anyone else you know to be 'real' has." No answer is exactly right and no answer is exactly wrong...as long as it's beneficial to the being who believes it, and for humanity.

To sum it up, believe what you want. There is no right answer. God can be "real" to some and unreal, but respected, and loved by others (like myself). I have to say, to me he's "real" even though I know he isn't any type of being, I know he's not up in the clouds somewhere. But he's still "real", he still can affect people.

Good comes out of Atheism, and good comes out of most religions. You need a little bit of both for the World to be at it's very best.

I talked way more than I needed to and repeated the same thing over and over, but there ya go!
Last edited by RideTheLightning on Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
superiorsavior
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Re: Religion. Keep on topic, argue through PMs.

Postby superiorsavior » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:39 am

Plain and simple-God shows humans how to live, he does this through The Bible

How can you be sure the bible is the word of god? Because the bible tells you it is? Or because the church tells you it is? If the church, why do you believe the church true if not because of the bible? This is circular logic no matter how you look at it. I'm not sure how a book as errnt, filled with false prophecy, factual contradiction and ethically devoid as the bible could count as the word of god anyway. What evidence does the Bible have that the Torah does not have, that the Koran doesn't have, that the Vedas, not to mention the thoudands of old religions and the millions of future religions that have yet to surface, don't have? They Can't ALL be the truth. If you say they all contain elements of truth, then they arn't all true, only part of each is true, and the full truth could be described elsewhere.

miracles

A miraicle must be defined as an act that defies the laws of nature; otherwise, how could you know the deity had acted? It could be argued that a miraicle (as it breaks the laws of nature, that are themselves the product of observation) would be impossible. God performing miraicles to help some people but not others seems rather abitrary for a perfect being. Why would a perfect being would want to break the laws he's created. This is all hypothetical as there are always alternative accounts of miraicle stories that actually exist, that do not defy nature and so are more plausable (as natural laws are made of inuberable observations, the miraicle is one obsevation, the law is more likely to be right). As all communication from god must be miraiculous in nature, the implausability of miraicles renders communication from god almost imposible to justifiably believe.

Humans would not know that you are supposed to love and care for each other without things like The Bible to lead them.

Most humans (and most social animals for that matter) have biological imperatives to be moral, and even sociopaths have pragmatic reasons to be moral (for a summery of Hobbes; if everyone was an assh*le, their lives wouldn't be as fun because everyone would be an assh*le to them). We can also discover objective moral laws through use of our rationality. Following the bible isn't being moral, it's following orders.

"Well not only is "God" a good leader, he should be the object of worship, he created everything!"

All the arguments for god (except the moral argument) are arguments for a personal creator. A moral lawgiver is un-nescicary as I have just discussed. As I said in the last post, a god who is meerly an object of worship is an objectively MEANINGLESS god, for 'deserving worship' is a subjective notion. Either way, the basis of the judeo-christianic faiths is the creation, I don't see how someone can justify christian faith if they don't believe god is the creator.

People to find out the real answers

If real answers exist, why are false answers that proport to be true, preventing many people accepting the true answrs, still valuble? Value is not lost when people reject god; god does not bring any added moral value, he doesn't bring any added aesthetic value, he doesn't bring any added epistemic value, he doesn't bring any added meaning to the world. I don't see what's lost in rejecting him.

If god does not exist, and there are no pressing pragmatic reasons to retain belief in the face of the evidence, then disbelief in god is the rght answer. If god exists, and there are no pressing pragmatic reasons to disbelieve even though he exists, then belief in god is the right answer. I don't buy this whole "there is no right answer" buisiness. You might as well say 2+2 could equal 3 or it could equal 5 depending on your mindset. This whole "I'm the most open minded person on the forum" thing isn't helping you much either.

Without God people would have no one to turn to, without God the world would be much more cruel

This is, i think, an attept at a pressing pragmatic reason to believe even if god doesn't exist. If you mean we're dying spiritually as in going to hell, then this fails because it assumes hell exists and so contradicts the one right answer thing. If you mean it more metaphorically, then go read "unweaving the rainbow" for a refutation better than any i can come up with on the spot.

This no-one-is-right thing comes precariously close to postmodernism and pragmatism concerning the truth. The former I've dealt with earlier but is basically just nihilism, while the latter can be reasonably seen to be false if religion doesn't seem to bring more good than bad (if it's neutril there's no reason to go with something that seems false).
Last edited by superiorsavior on Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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