RELIGION - what? LET'S UNITE AGAINST SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES!

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JohnHorn
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby JohnHorn » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:00 pm

well I almost don't believe in free will I mean finally if we are gay we would chosse to be gay given free choice.
if we are hetro we would chosse to be hetro given free choice.
why because sexuality is preprogramed into us unless your asexual… :roll: .
finally if you would chosse to become sexual hat was determined externally to your free choice[pre-programing social presure society, and anything but you… but never mind].
education?… you can't actually have free choice as a baby again… you parents chosse that your parets choice is determined by society both individually and over all. the majority form the peer pressure group anyway.
that is essentially the most random part of you who your parents are it is fully arbitrary.

You don't chosse how you will die, and you don't chose how your born.
that’s quite a bit of detail do you chosse the event’s in your life we’ll pretty much your culture you don't determine you don't determine what you will or will not like, and so forth.
so firstly freedom to chosse is limited,
to thing’s that are formed bassed on the scenario one is born into and potentially one’s DNA, to the degree that is true their are probably also in effects that occour within the mother’s womb that effect the personality. like the spot’s in horses. and not forgetting the…… envrionmental effect’s on fitness, and mental faculties drug’s food…,
and so forth. Basically smoke a cig you are already taking something that modifies your personality take make up your modifying how you see yourself acting is a skill that essentially results in justifying acting, anyway. weather or not that is necisary your a meat eater then you decide meat eating is alright.
Basically, free will is limited, within social confines that eb and flow.
Last edited by JohnHorn on Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Barack_Obama
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Barack_Obama » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:06 pm

For some time now, there has been plenty of talk among pundits and pollsters that the political divide in this country has fallen sharply along religious lines. Indeed, the single biggest "gap" in party affiliation among white Americans today is not between men and women, or those who reside in so-called Red States and those who reside in Blue, but between those who attend church regularly and those who don't.

Conservative leaders have been all too happy to exploit this gap, consistently reminding evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design.
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superiorsavior
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby superiorsavior » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:16 pm

unless your asexual

Why would asexuality not be programmed into us?
The ongoing psychological programming received throughout life, while more changeable than the biological equivalent, is just as external to you and ultimately un-chosen; our reaction to external stimulus is both based on and shapes our personality, which is initially (as Johnhorne said) unchosen.

abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design

It's unfortunate that most athiests and liberal theists fall into the trap of debating these red-herring topics, instead of ignoring them and letting them die.
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Kelly MacCornmac
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Kelly MacCornmac » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:27 pm

JH: You can choose how you die. But then you'll have to kill yourself :p.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI
Last edited by Kelly MacCornmac on Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Barack_Obama
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Barack_Obama » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:28 pm

superiorsavior wrote:
abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design

It's unfortunate that most athiests and liberal theists fall into the trap of debating these red-herring topics, instead of ignoring them and letting them die.

I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.
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Pip Tweek
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Pip Tweek » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:34 pm

Barack_Obama wrote:I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.


Hey, it's the President! What up, dude? Thanks for joining the discussion. I want to know where you stand on the issue of faith.
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby superiorsavior » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:38 pm

You can choose to die, i'm sure that would be a conscious (willed) decision rather than something the subconscious takes care of itself, but even that is not freely chosen. It's based on your personality, which formed over time from a sucession of expieriences that you either did not choose or chose because of the personality built on past unchosen experiences.

I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.

I think the main problem, aside from the difficulty in identifying right from wrong when your view of the world is based not on evidence but that combination of emotion and tradition we like to call 'faith,' is that the highly religious often learn of athiesm through media outlets that arn't fully honest in their description of athiests; consequently they often believe athiesm is not simply the rejection of god but an entire set of humanistic moral beliefs, scientific epistimiology and metaphysical naturalism. If we want to have informed voting, theists must realize that the only issue in which atheists and theists must necessarily differ in opinion is that of weather a being that can rightly be termed God actually exists.
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Barack_Obama
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Barack_Obama » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:55 pm

superiorsavior wrote:
I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.

I think the main problem, aside from the difficulty in identifying right from wrong when your view of the world is based not on evidence but that combination of emotion and tradition we like to call 'faith,' is that the highly religious often learn of athiesm through media outlets that arn't fully honest in their description of athiests; consequently they often believe athiesm is not simply the rejection of god but an entire set of humanistic moral beliefs, scientific epistimiology and metaphysical naturalism. If we want to have informed voting, theists must realize that the only issue in which atheists and theists must necessarily differ in opinion is that of weather a being that can rightly be termed God actually exists.

In other words, if we don't reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons will continue to hold sway.


Hey, it's the President! What up, dude? Thanks for joining the discussion. I want to know where you stand on the issue of faith.


I speak from experience here. I was not raised in a particularly religious household. My father, who returned to Kenya when I was just two, was Muslim but as an adult became an atheist. My mother, whose parents were nonpracticing Baptists and Methodists, grew up with a healthy skepticism of organized religion herself. As a consequence, I did too.

Nothing is more transparent than inauthentic expressions of faith -- the politician who shows up at a black church around election time and claps -- off rhythm -- to the gospel choir.

......Sorry, I think my sub-conscience has been getting at me lately......
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superiorsavior
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby superiorsavior » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:12 pm

if we don't reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons will continue to hold sway.

We should inform them of exactly what we are, but I think the best way to combat the absolutism of Falwell and those of his ilk is to inform them of the amazing diversity of mutually contradictory religious traditions, who all have among there many adherents those who claim to have experienced their deity or his actions, historical 'evidence' that their prophets existed, a few passages that can be taken as successfully prophetic or in line with intuitional morality, and an explanation as good as theirs for the life, the universe and everything else we find hard to explain. How can anyone say that these traditions are compatible when they see how divergent their views are on; ethics, from the absolute pacifism of Jainism which extends even to insects, to the human sacrificing Aztecs: epistemology, from the fairly evidentialist Buddhists to the biblical literalism: metaphysics, from the trinitarian Christians to the truly monotheistic Jews to the polytheistic Shinto. They should realize that the reasons they reject these beliefs, apply equally to their own but even if they don't, and as consequence they should follow the evidence without a preconcieved conclusion, i.e. become agnostic athiests. Even if this does not occur, understanding other views will help breed tolerance of them as they see the 'evidence' other religions have.

Nothing is more transparent than inauthentic expressions of faith

It may not be as transparent, but authentic expressions of faith can be far more harmful. Belief without evidence alone can lead to tragedy, such as 'faith' that a faulty airplane wing won't endanger passengers and doesn't require costly repair, or that someone is cured of their schizophrenia or tuburculosis and doesn't need to take their medication anymore; belief with insufficient evidence always leads to sub-optimal chance of coming to the morally correct decision, if the outcome has any impact on the morality of an act. However much i disagree with Dawkins for the obvious political tone of his books, I think we should agree that Islamic terrorism and the northern island troubles, were mostly motivated by overt expressions of a deeply held, sincere faith.
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Barack_Obama
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Barack_Obama » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:20 pm

superiorsavior wrote:
if we don't reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons will continue to hold sway.

We should inform them of exactly what we are, but I think the best way to combat the absolutism of Falwell and those of his ilk is to inform them of the amazing diversity of mutually contradictory religious traditions, who all have among there many adherents those who claim to have experienced their deity or his actions, historical 'evidence' that their prophets existed, a few passages that can be taken as successfully prophetic or in line with intuitional morality, and an explanation as good as theirs for the life, the universe and everything else we find hard to explain. How can anyone say that these traditions are compatible when they see how divergent their views are on; ethics, from the absolute pacifism of Jainism which extends even to insects, to the human sacrificing Aztecs: epistemology, from the fairly evidentialist Buddhists to the biblical literalism: metaphysics, from the trinitarian Christians to the truly monotheistic Jews to the polytheistic Shinto. They should realize that the reasons they reject these beliefs, apply equally to their own but even if they don't, and as consequence they should follow the evidence without a preconcieved conclusion, i.e. become agnostic athiests. Even if this does not occur, understanding other views will help breed tolerance of them as they see the 'evidence' other religions have.

And even if we did have only Christians within our borders, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? James Dobson's or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK and that eating shellfish is an abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith?Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount, a passage so radical that it's doubtful that our Defense Department would survive its application?
Nothing is more transparent than inauthentic expressions of faith

It may not be as transparent, but authentic expressions of faith can be far more harmful. Belief without evidence alone can lead to tragedy, such as 'faith' that a faulty airplane wing won't endanger passengers and doesn't require costly repair, or that someone is cured of their schizophrenia or tuburculosis and doesn't need to take their medication anymore; belief with insufficient evidence always leads to sub-optimal chance of coming to the morally correct decision, if the outcome has any impact on the morality of an act. However much i disagree with Dawkins for the obvious political tone of his books, I think we should agree that Islamic terrorism and the northern island troubles, were mostly motivated by overt expressions of a deeply held, sincere faith.

We all know the story of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham is ordered by God to offer up his only son, and without argument, he takes Isaac to the mountaintop, binds him to an altar, and raises his knife, prepared to act as God has commanded.

Of course, in the end God sends down an angel to intercede at the very last minute, and Abraham passes God's test of devotion.

But it's fair to say that if any of us saw a 21st century Abraham raising the knife on the roof of his apartment building, we would, at the very least, call the police and expect the Department of Children and Family Services to take Isaac away from Abraham"


We would do so because we do not hear what Abraham hears, do not see what Abraham sees, true as those experiences may be. So the best we can do is act in accordance with those things that are possible for all of us to know, be it common laws or basic reason.
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M00ndragon69
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby M00ndragon69 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:50 am

SS, can I ask you something? Be honest..Did you copy and paste most of those arugements you just made in the previous threads? I don't know, just something about them seems like you didn't create them yourself.


And welcome to the board Mr President. Man, we must really suck worse than I thought if you have to take time in your busy schedule to talk to us. Good luck having any kind of truly serious debate here, it seems certain people debate for the sake of debating..That kind of annoys me cause, from my point of view, what is the point of debating if you can't really apply it to the real world? SS keeps going on and on about what people should do, and what they should think..Should, should,should...And to me, most of it sounds unrealistic.But anyway, welcome to the board.
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superiorsavior
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby superiorsavior » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:52 am

Did you copy and paste most of those arugements you just made in the previous threads?

This reads like a copy paste of your 'criticisms' of another debate whore who posted here when i first joined and unlike me actually did copy paste from wiki no less... I be getting deja vu :P

I copy paste very little in here; i have enough free time that i can waste it typing these comments over and over but it just ends up cementing the ideas in my head in a way that makes me sound stilted and stifled, i shouldn't do really, i should just copy paste. The stuff about jesus the communist was me typing up the notes i took from a 150/200 page pamphlet on liberation theology, which isn't really copy/pasting. The ideas on free will all seem like copy/pastes because I've repeated the same tired idea so many times now.

I think my arguments against God's existance will look like copy/paste soon, they're starting to get a structure of "what is god? is he, or a part of him, a metaphor for something, like einstein's god is for physics; if so, he or that part of him is a signifier for that thing and nothing more. Is he a being that is actually worshipped, in that case there are millions of gods. Is it something worthy of worship, that needs complicated moral discussions and probably leads to millions of 'gods.' Is it a perfect personal creator of everything? Problems with the inconsistancy and incoherence of the perfections. Can a cause exist outside time, can an action or a reaction occur outside time? Is there empirical evidence that the universe was made to support and develop life, to minimise suffering and maximise liberty, to develop moral character or the acceptance of specific beliefs; if not, then if there is a personal cause his purpose for the universe is likely nothing we would ever care about like generating black holes and suns. Is a personal cause a simple (explains my epistimiology) explanation compared with alternatives?" I usually ineptly add some sh*t in to make it fit the post i'm replying to better, and maybe a few religion!specific criticisms like "how can an allagorical interpritation find anything that wasn't in the mind of the interpriter already, it's like listening to static noise and trying to find a message you will hear that message" or "literalism fails because of numerous internal and external contradictions." I want to LEARN some of these contradictions, unfulfilled prophecies and immoralities by verse so i can be even MORE robotic, i fail so bad at wit and spontinuity.

what is the point of debating if you can't really apply it to the real world

To piss off moralfags for teh LULZ?
Weather something is "applicable to the real world" can never be used to find out weather it's right or wrong; is/ought fallacy. The world may just plain suck. I'm less pessimistic about how unchangeable the world is than you, but even if it wasn't, knowledge is always a good tool to have on your side. If you know your living in a crapsack world that's never going to improve, why have any moral compunctions, unless you have the whole 'self preservation' thing still going? I think morality will just end up "preserve the status quo! the status quo is god!" if morality has to 'work' in the real world. What desires one ought to have and ought not to have, is either beyond the physical in the same way maths is or it is nonexistant, and there is no ultimate purpose that is worse than any other ultimate purpose; naturalistic facts don't cut it, unless X is by definition bad to desire there is no reason why someone shouldn't desire X, no matter what it is. Science can never tell you what you should desire, which is why it's a good topic for debate; there's a name for all the sub-sects of the "there is no should" for desires, and you can debate among those, nihilism, non-cognitivism in all it's stripes, relitivism, subjectivism, whatever, they're all there if you deny objectivism. You can still learn things from this.

And what's the point of working, what's the point of anything, unless you know what you should be working towards, if you have no aims or goals? We can shape what we become, what do I mold me into, if anything's equally valid? I don't want to be a robot to my genes and upbringing, I want to do the exact opposite of whatever society thinks is good unless there's some higher purpose, I want to control people but I want to be controlled, I want to help and hurt people at the same time, any people, including myself. The mixing pot ends up producing apathy so your all somewhat safe =D
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SPDude666
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby SPDude666 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:16 am

Why didn't you welcome me, m00ndragon?:'(

The afterlife won't nesicarilly put you in a better position than the one your in now
I never said it would. I may hate heaven/wherever. I don't know until I get there. I may find eternal bliss boring.

The afterlife won't nesicarilly put you in a better position than the one your in now
I understand you gave a reason, but you shouldn't hate something just 'cause you don't believe it.

you choose on the basis of what you like and dislike anyway what rules to follow,
Not true, I choose on what will not only be allowed in society (Stoning the gays= BIG no) but what is just a story and what isn't.

The will is conscious thought, most thought is sub-conscious.
(Facepalms) that's not the type of thought I meant.

but as our personality is ultimately sourced outside ourselves, and cannot have been chosen, and all the actions and personality developments we could possibly have are all based on the personality and situations we did not choose, we cannot have free will.
If you mean genetics, someone must've had the free will in the first place.
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M00ndragon69
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby M00ndragon69 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:29 am

Well, if that last paragraph is true about yourself, get some help. Talk to your friends. Talk to your family. Talk to some psychologist or therapist. Or a psychic..Just f*cking talk to someone before you go do something stupid. And really talk, about your problems, instead of just debating ideas about morality.

I think if you really knew me, you wouldn't be calling me pessimestic. Because if you actually knew me, you would know that yes, I think there are some f*cked up political situations created by f*cked up people who just wanted power, and used religion to manipulate people. That went on for centuries, and it still goes on. Also people can be total assh*les about differences in beliefs, and Science isn't much better because Science and technology ended up creating things that ended up f*cking up the earth's environment. And break throughs in medicine might have helped people stay alive, but that lead to over population. And being over crowded pisses people off..There are basically too many stupid people in the world making too many problems And oh yeah, so many news sources are biased so you never know if you are getting the real story about the sh*t that is going on in the world.And no one has all the answers as how to fix everything. The world is f*cked. But I am not pessimestic. You know why? Because I have alot of people in my life who I care about. My friends and family. And even though in the past I have had problems, my life is pretty awesome now. I have a good job, a decent place to live, a lot of cool interesting people to hang out with, I have a lot to be thankful for. I may not be able to control what everyone else in the rest of the world does, but I can control my own actions and not make choices that will negativly affect my life. That is what I focus on, not just focusing on all the problems in the world that I can't do sh*t about and hoping Jesus or Science will fix everything some day. And with my concept of right and wrong, I am not doing anything wrong. I didn't f*ck anyone over to make my life better.


Welcome SPDude..Sorry didn't mean to ignore you, I just got distracted by the fact that The President of The United States decided to start posting on this board. Wow. We must have done something pretty special to get his attention..LOL..
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SPDude666
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby SPDude666 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:33 am

M00ndragon: First, thank you for the welcome ;)

And also, I'm just curious, but why do you care if we debate anyway? I mean, it's not like you have to go to this thread.

No offence intended...
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