RELIGION - what? LET'S UNITE AGAINST SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES!

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Kelly MacCornmac
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Kelly MacCornmac » Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:05 am

You can't prove that anything supernatural does or will exist because it's above nature. Once you find evidence for it would just be a part of nature, and therefore not supernatural. But with god I need evidence for his existence to prove that he does indeed exist, but that is impossible for him to be above nature and within nature at the same exact time. If he is within nature then he must abide by nature's rules. Therefore he's not all powerful, and in turn means that he is imperfect or that he didn't create everything here.





There is no proof that unicorns do not exist, but yet we think that they do not. There is even proof that they do exist (however flawed). Prove to me that unicorns don't exist, asides from the lack of evidence that they do. You must come with arguments yourself and you must not look it up. Or if you want, prove to me that they do exist.

EDIT:

I guess I didn't read the last half correctly. I don't believe in god or higher power because the lack of evidence, simple as that.
Last edited by Kelly MacCornmac on Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby 2+2=5 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:18 am

Not very original Blueeyes; mo0n said pretty much the same thing with her "you don't know everything" comment. You don't need to 'prove' God to any greater degree than you need to prove the external world; you base it on the simplest explanation for your available perceptive evidence. The simplest explanation for the perception of an external world is that one exists, the simplest explanation for a universe is not personal, and for a universe filled with suffering, varied beliefs, immorality and chances of global extinction is not a personal creator who cares whether we suffer, what we believe, how we act toward others or even weather we exist. The simplest explanation for our perception that a book called the bible exists is that the book exists; for the contradictions, false prophecies, scientific, archeological and moral absurdities, miracle accounts, earlier texts with similar stories, the need for a physical book filled with translation and transcription errors, vague wording leading to numerous sects and numerous competing holy books that couldn't possibly be true is that the book is purely man-made. Well, the simplest conclusion without all those flaws is that it's as mad made as Dianetics, those problems just cement it.

give an answer based on what such and such said that made you believe it.

Everything we believe, we believe for a reason; often, what other people have said. If you got an idea from someone else, it doesn't mean the idea is false, and you should credit them. I can't tell you who's responsible for my ideas, a synthesis of everyone i ever read, some more so than others.

Inspired by death, the south park episode; if a kid gets cancer and decides he'd prefer to die than take painful chemotherapy that increases his chance of survival by a few percent....should they be able to choose suicide? Or should their parents have that choice? Or their doctors? Or no one? At what age should you have control over your healthcare decisions, and should you be able to choose euthanasia at any age?
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M00ndragon69
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby M00ndragon69 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:22 am

Kelly, I am not saying you would attack people for what they believe..But, you do know this is a public forum, right..You do know anything you say here can be commented on and criticized..Right? You seem more than eager to attack everyone's beliefs, but it seems the minute someone criticizes someone with your world view, or challenges your arguements, you get all pissed.


And you know what else? I don't vote for the things you athiests are against. If prop 8 was on the ballot here in Washington, I would have voted against it..So would have my fruitcake friends who also believe in things science can't prove. You know what else? I don't believe churches should have tax exempt status, even the few pagan churches that have it. And I am against prayer in school, and images of the 10 Commandments in goverment buildings. Because all of those things make it seem like Christianity are the only religion the government endorses. I think that is not right, there is suppost to be seperation of church and state in this country, and I think it shouldn't matter what you believe, everyone should be treated equally. A lot of non athiests share my view and care about those things, and acting the way you are acting is only alienating them. That is stupid, because if people ever want to see things like Gay marriage become legal, people who care about that issue are going to have to put their differences about beliefs asside and work together.


And one more thing..It is really easy for all of you to sit, and go back and forth criticising other's beliefs, when most people here share your opinion. I think me and Mike are the only ones who have the balls to say they disagree. Well, how big are your balls? Lets see you guys go have your little debates on a hardcore fundamentalist Christian site. Like God Hates Fags..Or better, yet, a hardcore Fundamentalist Muslim message board. Where you guys would be the minority, and possibly dealing with some really nasty people. It doesn't take many balls to just sit here, saying the same bullsh*t over and over about self deception, and how do we know what is moral, and blah, blah, blah..It doesn't take any balls to preach to the choir.

And actually 2+2, unless you are someone who is a regular posting under another name, I am by no means a fence sitter. I am pretty hardcore into paganism. I have been for more than 10 years. And Blue Eyes is probably new to the concept of debating. At least he is trying.


Kelly, I really piss you off, don't I?
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gtaca2005
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby gtaca2005 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:29 am

I am so glad I have been out of this thread. :P

It seems like all of your relationships are falling apart with each other. :o

I am staying out of this.......
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby 2+2=5 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:40 am

2+2=SuperiorSavior since he forgot his password.
I agree we are preaching to the choir; I should get out more into enemy territory ;P

I'd like to see an elaboration of your beliefs; and why you hold them. It'd be interesting, since i know next to nothing about them.

I suppose I should re-itterate the points that; criticizing someone's beliefs isn't the same as forcing them to accept your beliefs, and if it was, you'd be forcing me to accept your beliefs by criticizing me, nor is it a personal attack: it's irrational to imply that you can't answer these questions with the whole "you can't know everything" schtick and then jump in with "I am pretty hardcore into paganism" rather than sitting on the fence (when there's no evidence to tip the scales): something that's not true should be discouraged even if it isn't harmful: for reasons i gave on the *very first page of this thread* why not discouraging belief is bad, even if it's not being "forced" down people's throats. It really doesn't seem like I'm getting anywhere here.

For everyone who thinks not being able to disprove to a degree of certainty = not justified in disbelieving. You can't disprove it, so you might as well believe it! :D
Last edited by 2+2=5 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Kelly MacCornmac
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Kelly MacCornmac » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:50 am

Kelly, I am not saying you would attack people for what they believe..But, you do know this is a public forum, right..You do know anything you say here can be commented on and criticized..Right? You seem more than eager to attack everyone's beliefs, but it seems the minute someone criticizes someone with your world view, or challenges your arguements, you get all pissed.

Yea and you do realize that you are arguing against me arguing right? Really? :roll: And you don't attack the arguments I present you. Which is the point of debating, not making round about moves, which you seem to be doing. Oh and that reminds me, you didn't tell me where you got the stuff about prop 8 from. I never said that stuff.

I don't vote for the things you athiests are against.
Never said you did. I never said Christians don't do the same thing either. Please stop putting words into my mouth in attempt to stop me from debating, that will not work. If you aren't trying to stop me from debating, then why bring this up?

Lets see you guys go have your little debates on a hardcore fundamentalist Christian site.
Oh that brings me back to the glory days. I went on a Christian site once and presented arguments (I was the only one presenting the arguments).... I forgot what happened to them... Really, I'm not scared to go on one of their sites. The worst I would get is banned. You know what? It's a good idea. I might go on one. That would relive my boredom at least.

Kelly, I really piss you off, don't I?


You only pissed me off in the since that you put words in my mouth that I never have said. You try to make me seem worse than what I really am. I am sick and tired of you of going around and saying we should not debate at all.


GTA: Nah, I'm sure if I chatted with her more we'd be fine.
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M00ndragon69
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby M00ndragon69 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:37 am

Ok, maybe I was tired from work last night, and I didn't make it clear who I was talking to about the voting thing. I was talking to 2+2, because he was the one who brought up the idea that people who keep their beliefs to themselves still vote for things he is against. I assumed what he meant by people voting for things fundamentalist Christians would vote for. Which, by the way, many Pagans do vote against..I voted against Bush twice for your information. But, maybe I didn't make it clear who I was talking to, because, yeah for the better part of the evening, I was working my ass off. Why do you think I am only here to argue at night?

And how exactly did I put words in your mouth?

You are really pissed off in general, aren't you? One gets that idea from the things you say on this board. Yeah I know exactly what it is like to not be able to be open with everyone about what you believe, and yes it isn't fair.But that sort of thing can happen to anyone with any set of beliefs, so neither of us are the only ones that has ever happened to. .But obsessing on it, and obsessing on all the things that piss you off, especially the ones you are currently in no position to do anything about, well it doesn't make you feel any better.


I never said you couldn't debate..But I never said I was going to agree with you, or that I wasn't going to say so when I disagree. If you are going to debate, those kind of things are going to happen. If you can't take it then don't debate.


And 2+2, I already posted some links on Wicca a while ago. Go look those up if you wanna know.
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby 2+2=5 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:56 pm

Neo-paganism is a very varied belief system, i was wondering what your particular beliefs were within it; i'll try and find and take those links though.

I know exactly what it is like to not be able to be open with everyone about what you believe

I can be as open as I like, living in secular England; I generally don't think or talk about my beliefs offline, not that I'm offline much. (I know this was aimed at KMAC, but this is to show not all athiests live in an area where they are a hated minority). I obsess over religion online, probably because it's a topic people have strong opinions on (so it's fun to debate) that is fairly easy to answer compared with politics or morality.

I never said you couldn't debate..

This whole disagreement has been one big misunderstanding then ;P
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Kelly MacCornmac
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Kelly MacCornmac » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:41 am

Miscommunication I guess :O





You are really pissed off in general, aren't you? One gets that idea from the things you say on this board. Yeah I know exactly what it is like to not be able to be open with everyone about what you believe, and yes it isn't fair.But that sort of thing can happen to anyone with any set of beliefs, so neither of us are the only ones that has ever happened to. .But obsessing on it, and obsessing on all the things that piss you off, especially the ones you are currently in no position to do anything about, well it doesn't make you feel any better.

Actually no, I'm normally not pissed at all. Except from here I'm not sure where you get that from :S.

And I am sorry Kelly but about what you just said about people's prayers and wishes, well you don't know everything. People who believe in what you just called Superstition can't prove what they believe is true and you can't disprove it. So what you said is just your opinion, and I am sorry but you opinion is no better than anyone else's. And you know something else, some people who believe that some diety or spirit answered their prayers, they keep it to themselves. For many people, religion or spirituality is a personal thing, something they don't share with everyone. That is one thing I really don't like about your point of view, it just really seems like you lump all the people who believe in things you don't, who are minding their own business, not pushing their beliefs on anyone or harming anyone, into the same category with the assh*les who kill people over religion, push their beliefs on everyone and vote yes on prop 8. I am not one of those people, neither are any of my pagan friends. We keep to ourselves, and most people I know don't even know I am pagan.


The words bolded and are huge are the words you put in my mouth. I never did say that every religious person was mean or pushing beliefs. You were speaking directly to me and nobody else.


If you want me to make it a bit clearer, then I will say this. I think that prayer is just a superstitious act like throwing salt over their shoulder. That doesn't mean everybody that does it is automatically evil :S.

Can't we just talk about ideas?
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby BlueEyes4u2nv » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:36 pm

M00ndragon69 wrote:Kelly, I am not saying you would attack people for what they believe..But, you do know this is a public forum, right..You do know anything you say here can be commented on and criticized..Right? You seem more than eager to attack everyone's beliefs, but it seems the minute someone criticizes someone with your world view, or challenges your arguements, you get all pissed.


And you know what else? I don't vote for the things you athiests are against. If prop 8 was on the ballot here in Washington, I would have voted against it..So would have my fruitcake friends who also believe in things science can't prove. You know what else? I don't believe churches should have tax exempt status, even the few pagan churches that have it. And I am against prayer in school, and images of the 10 Commandments in goverment buildings. Because all of those things make it seem like Christianity are the only religion the government endorses. I think that is not right, there is suppost to be seperation of church and state in this country, and I think it shouldn't matter what you believe, everyone should be treated equally. A lot of non athiests share my view and care about those things, and acting the way you are acting is only alienating them. That is stupid, because if people ever want to see things like Gay marriage become legal, people who care about that issue are going to have to put their differences about beliefs asside and work together.


And one more thing..It is really easy for all of you to sit, and go back and forth criticising other's beliefs, when most people here share your opinion. I think me and Mike are the only ones who have the balls to say they disagree. Well, how big are your balls? Lets see you guys go have your little debates on a hardcore fundamentalist Christian site. Like God Hates homosexuals..Or better, yet, a hardcore Fundamentalist Muslim message board. Where you guys would be the minority, and possibly dealing with some really nasty people. It doesn't take many balls to just sit here, saying the same bullsh*t over and over about self deception, and how do we know what is moral, and blah, blah, blah..It doesn't take any balls to preach to the choir.

And actually 2+2, unless you are someone who is a regular posting under another name, I am by no means a fence sitter. I am pretty hardcore into paganism. I have been for more than 10 years. And Blue Eyes is probably new to the concept of debating. At least he is trying.


Kelly, I really piss you off, don't I?


Eeeeeeeew you have teh balls eeewy

tehehehehehe

On a more serious note, Yall are taking what eachother say WAY way too seriously, Its a forum, Sure it's for sharing opinions etc. But come on, It's religion! Nothing can be confirmed, Not until you die. Til' that day I think we should keep the beliefs and disagreeing to ourselves. And that includes me.
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby M00ndragon69 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:42 am

This thread is kind of dead..If people are going to continue to use this thread to debate, there really needs to be some new people here so people aren't just beating a dead horse. I really like debating someone who is a complete intolerant assh*le of people different than them. And not just in debate mode, but in real life as well. And definately not someone who is just pretending to be like that for shock value and trolling. No a real bigoted assh*le of some kind. It would be super if someone showed up to debate about religion and politics who was such a dick that everyone here regardless of their beliefs would hate them. That would really bring the board together, and the fact that we all couldn't stand the person would make arguing with them that much more fun.

Hey Kelly, SS, know any huge assh*les from other boards you have debated at? Get them over here. LOL..
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby BlueEyes4u2nv » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:33 am

M00ndragon69 wrote:This thread is kind of dead..If people are going to continue to use this thread to debate, there really needs to be some new people here so people aren't just beating a dead horse. I really like debating someone who is a complete intolerant assh*le of people different than them. And not just in debate mode, but in real life as well. And definately not someone who is just pretending to be like that for shock value and trolling. No a real bigoted assh*le of some kind. It would be super if someone showed up to debate about religion and politics who was such a dick that everyone here regardless of their beliefs would hate them. That would really bring the board together, and the fact that we all couldn't stand the person would make arguing with them that much more fun.

Hey Kelly, SS, know any huge assh*les from other boards you have debated at? Get them over here. LOL..


To be honest, I think you're the only Arsehole here. And is to why I think that is as followed

- You purposely look for a debate ONLINE
- You ridicule those who don't debate, And tell them to leave

Its beyond me really. I'm not in the place to say, Because of my history here, But yeah that was all IMO.
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gtaca2005
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby gtaca2005 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:52 pm

Can't you just feel the love in the air? :P

I think we all need to just be like, "HEY! Everyone shut up, let's get together nicely, and unite against Social Conservatives!"

That would be awesome. 8)
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BlueEyes4u2nv
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby BlueEyes4u2nv » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:56 am

I have a solution,

Everyone hit ALT and F4 at once NOW
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Re: RELIGION - Puttin' faith aside, gettin' down to morals

Postby Big-Will » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:14 am

gtaca2005 wrote:Can't you just feel the love in the air? :P

I think we all need to just be like, "HEY! Everyone shut up, let's get together nicely, and unite against Social Conservatives!"

That would be awesome. 8)

Alrighty then. :)
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