The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

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triplemultiplex
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Re: The anti-Organized Religion Thread. Fu‍ck your church.

Postby triplemultiplex » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:15 pm

Niels0827 wrote:Evolution is more reasonable and rational to believe than creationism, despite the fact that it's only a theory because of how long the process takes. However, all evidence points towards it, so it's safe to say that evolution is the real deal.


'Theory' in the sense that Relativity is 'only a theory' or plate tectonics is 'only a theory'.

And like those examples it is akin to, evolution is most definitely observable even in human time scales.
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby seamus yarr » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:20 pm

im a catholic but that doesnt mean i dont believe in science as well
i believe in the theory of evolution and the big bang and so on but you must ask yourself:
Why does everything fit so perfectly into place?
you see, science answers the how? questions in life
and religion answers the why? questions in life
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AxayPaulene
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby AxayPaulene » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:26 pm

Things don't fit perfectly. There's still a bridge between logic and spirituality.





They don't seem to mix...


Edit: Then again, religion isn't spirituality, so this question doesn't really relate...
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby seamus yarr » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:30 pm

you need to think:
how is it that the enitre universe was created in perfection by a huge explosion-it couldnt have been an accident
how is it that we have all the vital body parts which work together for us to move around breath and digest? that couldnt have been an accident
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby evilcupcake72 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:32 pm

personally there is no religous concept I follow

not even Atheism
I just go with the flow and what ever happens when we die happens
let's try and live life instead of making it all about a religion
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby seamus yarr » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:37 pm

evilcupcake72 wrote:personally there is no religous concept I follow

not even Atheism
I just go with the flow and what ever happens when we die happens
let's try and live life instead of making it all about a religion

good point
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Niels0827 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:40 am

seamus yarr wrote:im a catholic but that doesnt mean i dont believe in science as well
i believe in the theory of evolution and the big bang and so on but you must ask yourself:
Why does everything fit so perfectly into place?
you see, science answers the how? questions in life
and religion answers the why? questions in life


Religion may provide answers to "why?" questions, but that doesn't make them the right answers. It's my personal opinion that way back when Christianity [or any theistic religion in general] was first created, it was because man wanted a reason for his existence. So he created one and preached it until they themselves believed it. This was way back when science could explain anything. They didn't have technology or the know-how to answer their questions about the universe, so they created a theory out of the blue. That isn't to say believing in a creator is a bad thing. I just personally don't.

I've discussed the whole creation of the universe theory with other theists and nontheists before. Lots of people wonder how everything could come from nothing. To answer this theory, theists would often say "God always was" in response to "Who created God", but they would also say that the universe couldn't have come from nothing Why can they say that about God and not the universe?"

And unfortunately, not everything fits so perfectly into place. 99.9% of all the plant, animal, unicellular, and fungi species that ever existed on earth are extinct, and many more are dying permanently each year. Everything that is alive today is only a microscopic fraction of everything that ever lived on Earth. This is an example of how flawed the whole life cycle is. Humans are vulnerable to anything from radiation, blindness and dwarfism to AIDS and influenza. Earth was far from inhabitable when it was first around. Life on earth is only going to be a small spot in the universe's history.

On a side note, atheism isn't a religious concept. It's a lack thereof. There was one person in this thread near the beginning that said atheism wasn't a real religion. Calling atheism a religion is like calling 'baldness' a hair color.

seamus yarr wrote:you need to think:
how is it that the enitre universe was created in perfection by a huge explosion-it couldnt have been an accident
how is it that we have all the vital body parts which work together for us to move around breath and digest? that couldnt have been an accident


The universe is flawed. What we know as the Solar System was only around for a few billion years. The sun, being a star, will eventually explode in a few billion years, but by that time it's safe to say life may be extinct due to the increasing heat from its gradually-expanding size in its life cycle.

Internal organs are also flawed. While they work in perfect harmony more often than not, this is a process that has taken millions of years to evolve. While all organs serve a function, they're not all vital, and I've heard of people living with only one lung, one kidney, no spleen, no appendix, and half a liver.
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby evilcupcake72 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:45 am

yeah I guess that's true

Im just trying to say god or not life should be lived for you not for "jesus"
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Niels0827 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:46 am

evilcupcake72 wrote:yeah I guess that's true

Im just trying to say god or not life should be lived for you not for "jesus"


Right, and I couldn't agree with you more. If there was a creator, why did he give us life to enjoy if we're supposed to spend it worshipping what we can't see or hear?
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby evilcupcake72 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:50 am

right, and I love how Christians are always talking about how evil religous sacrafice is
there accually is a story in the bible about someone sacaficing a bull for god or jesus or someone like that
and wasn't jesus a sacrafice?
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Niels0827 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:07 am

Well, I've told this to people. Jesus didn't "die for our sins." If Jesus was the son of God like he claimed to be, then he KNEW that he would rise from the dead. That hardly makes it a sacrifice.
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Psychotic_Socialist » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:39 am

Isn't it funny how there always seems to be an evolutionary explanation as to why we perceive things as good or bad? (morality)

Why is hurting someone not seen as good? Well, would you want to be with someone that hurts YOU? No. So one that hurts is less likely to pass traits on. Now you may say they can just rape, but remember that our ancestors lived together in groups. You are not going to rape someone with their partner in the group with you, a battle would ensue.

To get deeper, you may say, "Well how is pain seen as bad? That leads to hurting being seen as bad, according to you."

Pain is seen as bad to pass traits because pain is a warning that something is "hurting" you, and pain leads to death. :lol: Now I am NO scientist, but I IMAGINE it to be like this. I did not even Google this, this is in my head right now. Google if you want, and tell me where I am wrong.

Can anyone think of any more?
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Pip Tweek » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:17 am

Psychotic_Socialist wrote:Isn't it funny how there always seems to be an evolutionary explanation as to why we perceive things as good or bad? (morality)

Can anyone think of any more?


Basically, all evolutionary explanations involve negative consequences of actions. i.e. Don't steal your cave-neighbor's berries and twigs or they may pay you a visit and club you over the head, etc.
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby M00ndragon69 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:29 am

Actually I assumed Will was the one who changed the thread's title. Because he was on this thread last night and because it seems like something he would do.

Psychotic, I am going to have to respectually disagree with what you said about people avoiding pain. Most people avoid pain, and associate it with bad things, but not everyone. What about masochists and or people who cut themselves?

And as to the example of rape within tight groups, unfortunately, that sort of thing happens all the time in this day and age. I have known people who this happened to, at the hands of family members, or people within their circles of friends. Sometimes there were consquences for the offenders, but sometimes the other members of the group kind of looked the other way. These type of situations are not new, it is just that maybe people are more willing to talk about them now. I am sure there were incidents like this at the begining of the time when humans formed tribes and such. If people will do harm to people within their families or groups if they think they can get away with it, why wouldn't they have all through history?
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Niels0827 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:04 am

Psychotic_Socialist, I agree with your statement that human morality is evolving. The problem though, is morality was less complex thousands of years ago because people lacked vital communication skills, and there was far less in the world for people to disagree on. Organized religion plays a big role in this.

I'll give you an example. Numerous studies and evidence shows that the United States is more religious than almost all of the rest of the Western industralized world. Now I'm not saying these issues didn't exist elsewhere, but in the past 200 years, the U.S. has dealt with large-scale racism toward blacks, including slavery, segregation, and hatred. Then, up until Wyoming allowed female suggrage in 1869, women couldn't vote. I just can't personally understand why anyone wouldn't let a woman vote or a black live amongst everyone else, but that's how it was. Nowadays, persecution against females and blacks simply for being who they are is almost completely unheard of. But now, instead, there's a new generation of people who are ostracized. This includes homosexuals, Muslims, atheists, and to a lesser extent in the U.S., recent immigrants from Eastern Europe and Latin America. Though for the most part morality is about being good to others, there's more to it than that. To be a moral person in a broad sense, you have to be very open and/or progressive to the people and the world around you. It's about respecting others for who they are and you must take into account that not everyone will be just like you.

Let's hop across the ocean to the tiny country of Denmark. Except for my aunt who lives in Colorado, every single person on my dad's side of the family, lives in Denmark. My dad, obviously, was born there too. I have been there a few times, and let me explain how morality is different there:

Facts first: Denmark is an overwhelmingly atheist/agnostic country. Though about 3/4 of its population are members of the Lutheran church, this is because people born to one or both parents who were members the Lutheran church are automatically enrolled, and the unenrollment process is lengthy and time-consuming, and there is really no long-term gain from it. Church attendance in Denmark is almost non-existant, and numerous surveys, studies, and polls have found it to be one of the top 5 least-religious countries in the world. Now the correlation between the LACK of religion and morality is this:

Denmark was the first country to legalize pornography (1969), the first to grant same-sex couples privileges given to heterosexual couples (1989), and is consistently ranked one of the happiest, greenest, most-progressive, and least-corrupt countries in the world. It's also has one of the highest human development indexes of any country. The capital city of Copenhagen is also notable for being one of the best places in the world to do business and hosts many worldwide peace and climate control conferences. All this can be attributed to their overwhelmingly liberal views and quite possibly their lack of religious governance. Many of the things Denmark has done set the standard for the rest of the world. They realize that it doesn't take religion to be moral. You just have to be understanding of other people's desires and views.

In order for the overall morality of mankind to take a leap forward, somebody has to step in and say "hey, this is what needs to be done". For the most part, there is a direct correlation between how religious a country is, and how accepting the people are of others (which, in its broadest meaning, is morality). The most religious places in the world (Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Northern Africa, Afghanistan, and other Middle Eastern nations) are the sites for intolerance, bigotry, hatred, and chronic war. Nations with a less-religious population, such as Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Japan, the UK, Australia, Iceland, France, and most other western European countries, are amongst the most progressive, peaceful, and accepting places in the world.

To sum all this up - Morality and the majority of organized religion correlate in the opposite manner of which was originally intended.

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