The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

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Psychotic_Socialist
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Psychotic_Socialist » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:26 am

I am not saying nothing else plays a role, far from it. I can't see how you got that out of what I said, though. :o Sorry, I need to find better ways of explaining. I am trying to think of a way to explain what I mean but am having a hard time putting it into words. I talked with SuperMaids about it on MSN.... I don't know how to say it any different, all I can advise is going over what I said again and see if you get what I meant. Or maybe tell me how it relates to what I said, if I am missing it. (I know it relates, but I mean basic morals that, you know, are "de facto". Like rape is "bad", etc.)

But, regarding morals in religion:

Yes there are little "morals" that come from religion, but the big things like hurting someone, span across all peoples in all areas.

I see religion more as a thing to exempt morals in situations more so than keeping them. The Koran for example. Yes, it gives its' morals, but also says when it is ok to go against them "for Allah". Don't even get me started on the bible's morals. It goes against what I said, even. It justifies rape in instances. So when people say "well then where do you get your morals?", I point at the problems in biblical morality and tell them it doesn't matter where I get them from, at least I don't get them from there.
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Niels0827
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Niels0827 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:34 am

No, I knew what you were saying, but I was explaining how morals, regardless of whether they concern killing or racism or bigotry, are seen differently in other parts of the world. Iran, for instance - you steal something, they cut off your hand. In America, if you steal something, you go to jail for a while and/or pay a fine. The basis for these morals stems from the environment the people live in. Places like Denmark, for instance, have different de facto morals from most other places, though the obvious (don't kill or rape) are already a given.
Psychotic_Socialist
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Psychotic_Socialist » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:52 am

Oh. The penalty may be different, but it is perceived as bad all over.
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triplemultiplex
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby triplemultiplex » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:14 pm

One mistake atheists often make is to observe all the sh*tty things done in the name of religion and assume that without religion, those things would never happen. And while radicals may praise their god right before pulling the trigger, the root cause of their violence is not actually religion. Rather, religion becomes the excuse and justification for violence when it's usually an issue like access to resources and socio-economic inequity that push them into radicalism.

Israelistine isn't a conflict over religion, it's a conflict over land and access to water. Demonizing the other side in a religious context to radicalize folks on one's own side is just a means to the end of securing access to arable land and water to irrigate with.

When the vast majority of the oil wealth in Saudi Arabia stays with the monarchy while most of the people live near poverty, that's a golden opportunity for some Koran-thumping radical to come in and put a religious spin on why this inequity exists. Tell 'em it's all the fault of 'the west' and 'the jews' and 'non-muslims' from an early age and see how quickly they pick up a gun and join the fight.

I think it's a myth to assume that without religion, existing conflicts that on the surface seem to be about religion will go away. Humans will find new excuses to blow each other up. Or actually acknowledge the real reasons for their wars.

Though I'm not sure how you motivate somebody to be a suicide bomber without religion. That tactic probably would go away.
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Psychotic_Socialist
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Psychotic_Socialist » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:36 pm

I never said religion caused that, in fact, as you said, I said it is used as an excuse.

I wrote:I see religion more as a thing to exempt morals in situations more so than keeping them.



This goes for killing "in the name of" religion, as well. I see it as an excuse, not the cause.

(But in some cases it can be the "cause", but as you say, it is not the root. It could just as easily be another reason they kill for.)

I KNOW without religion there would still be all this crap. I just think it would be nice to git rid of this "excuse".
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M00ndragon69
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby M00ndragon69 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:56 am

That is true. From someone who isn't an atheist, my point of view is that I see what people say online and it seems like they think that if there was no religion, all the problems in the world would have never happened. I think that is unrealistic. It seems that most of the time when religion is part of the reason why a bunch of people are killing another group of people, it isn't just about the religious differences. It seems more like there was an existing conflict and the people in charge use religion to manipulate people into fighting their battles. Even if there was no religion, those people in charge would find another way to manipulate people into killing and dying for them. Someone who would manipulate others will say or do anything to get what they want.
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Wii fit man
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Wii fit man » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:09 am

iloveyouguys wrote:I see that this thread no longer has "Fuck your church" attached to it...

What a shame.

So I put my penis in there for nothing?!
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby M00ndragon69 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:12 am

LOL...Naughty, naughty.
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triplemultiplex
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby triplemultiplex » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:53 pm

Psychotic_Socialist wrote:I never said religion caused that, in fact, as you said, I said it is used as an excuse.

I wrote:I see religion more as a thing to exempt morals in situations more so than keeping them.


Yes, I read that. I was just picking up the idea and expounding on it. "Some Atheists" wasn't passive-aggressively directed at anyone in particular. Text is really poor at conveying inflection and tone.
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Niels0827
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Niels0827 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:01 am

I can't say that it's an issue that I have personally faced, since my secular nature usually means nobody knows I'm an atheist unless the subject comes up. But should somebody ask me what I believe, and I say I'm an atheist, their reaction matters.

There's atheist extremists just like there are Christian extremists. I'm not a fan of extremism even when the extremists are the ones fighting for a cause I'm in favor of. Atheists have an image in the minds of some people - they could be seen as anti-religious, Satanic, normal, or simply just 'confused'. When they hear the term 'atheist', lots of people, especially in the South and to a lesser extent, the Midwest, think of the extremists in the news and online who want the name 'God' removed from our money and the Pledge of Allegiance, and for religion itself to just go away. Some atheists do want these things, but in reality, most of them don't care. They live their lives the way others do, just without 'God'. While I'll admit that I'm in favor of taking the word 'God' off our money since it implies that one must trust in 'God' and it goes against equal rights in a way, I'm not going to go parading in the streets shouting my cause. All I do is wait for people to come to their senses, even when I doubt it'll happen.

I don't feel that I should HAVE to work hard to prove my sanity, intelligence, morality, and empathy to others just because of what I do or don't believe in. If they want to associate me with extremists, that's their right to be tasteless, bigoted, and crude. At least I'm more lenient than many other atheists in that I don't think believing in a deity is a bad thing.
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Wii fit man » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:53 am

I can't say that it's an issue that I have personally faced, since my secular nature usually means nobody knows I'm an atheist unless the subject comes up.
Same. I actually don't care to discuss religion outside of the internet.
But should somebody ask me what I believe, and I say I'm an atheist, their reaction matters.
Yes, agreed. Most people I know are religious, but only some care at all, most hardly care.
online who want the name 'God' removed from our money and the Pledge of Allegiance
I DO think this is a little unfair. I don't think it's a "CONSPIRACY TO TURN US RELIGIOULUS!!!1", but I dislike saying "Under God" every day in school. Whatever. I don't care that much about that. But a motto of "In God We Trust" IS really unfair. Some of us don't trust in God, in fact. That's like saying "We are all white" as a motto. Either way, it doesn't matter that much, I just wish it hadn't been added at all...
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Niels0827
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Niels0827 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:03 am

I agree with you though. When I recite the Pledge of Allegiance, I just don't say "under God". I don't put up a fit.

The primary reason I have a problem with all the mentions of a higher power in money and the Pledge of Allegiance [which was written in 1892 and didn't have the words "Under God" until 1954, I should add], is because it gives people, both atheist and religious, the false conception that our country was founded upon Christianity or religion, and this eventually spills into politics.

Just an FYI, the Treaty of Tripoli was originally written to establish a peace with certain states of northwestern Africa. Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli specifically states that the U.S. is not in any way founded upon Christianity.
M00ndragon69
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby M00ndragon69 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:33 am

My thoughts on the pledge are that I don't think little kids in school should have to say it in the first place. I remember, the first time I ever even heard it was in Kindergarten, and even then I thought it was odd that we had to say it every morning. I think the only point of that whole ritual is brainwashing children, mostly politically, but to some degree religiously too. That isn't right. I believe that kids should be able to grow up and decide what they believe for themselves.


Now as for taking "In God we Trust" off money, yeah they should take it off. And take off the Masonic symbolism too. The eye in the pyramid for instance, ever wonder why that is all over your dollar bills? I have heard a lot about Masons,both positive and negative, I am not entirely sure what I believe about their organization, but I do know that one requirement for being a Mason is you have to believe in God in some way. I know because one day last September, one of my friends who I actually practice magick with and I were hanging out, we were going to go out for pizza at this really good resteraunt, and we parked my car near the Masonic temple in that town. We were going to walk to the resteraunt, and on the way we ended up talking to this old guy who was a Mason. My friend asked him what the requirements for being a Mason were, and one of them was belief in some supreme being. So that means the masonic symbols on the dollar bills are connected to religion. This government should not show any bias for or against anyone's beliefs. That is only fair since this country is made up of people of all different beliefs, and most of us pay taxes. So that means, nothing connected to religion ( or atheism) on the money or the government buildings.
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Pip Tweek » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:58 pm

M00ndragon69 wrote:My thoughts on the pledge are that I don't think little kids in school should have to say it in the first place. I remember, the first time I ever even heard it was in Kindergarten, and even then I thought it was odd that we had to say it every morning. I think the only point of that whole ritual is brainwashing children, mostly politically, but to some degree religiously too. That isn't right. I believe that kids should be able to grow up and decide what they believe for themselves.


I passionately agree with you. I had the same experience in school. Every single day, before you do anything else, you have to perform this ritual that has nothing to do with education.

I hate nationalistic bullcrap. Another thing that annoys me is the term/anthem "God Bless America." If you're going to ask for a blessing from God, which one would think is a pretty major thing to do, why limit it to just America - or your political dominion of choice? Why not say "God Bless us all?" If God blessed the entire world as one, I believe it would work out better for America in the end. Maybe this is a trivial argument of semantics, but there are all kinds of little things like these that people don't even stop to think about, yet they have an impact on cultural and even personal identity.
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Re: The anti-ORGANIZED Religion Thread

Postby Niels0827 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:55 am

I just had to post this here.

There's a used car lot not too far from me. I've been going there for years to look at older cars for sale, or just to test drive when I'm bored. These guys know me and my cars very well. They moved to a new location just two blocks down the street a couple years ago, but I hadn't noticed until today, that there is a banner underneath the sign that says "In God We Trust".

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Somebody's passionate about their religion. Good for them. Remind me what that has to do with selling cars, though? Was that 1985 Ford Thunderbird that I test drove today blessed by Christ or something?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pissed off - I'm just baffled why people have to put that phrase in the most arcane places.

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