M00ndragon69 wrote:What I am talking about is if a priest is caught molesting kids and people in the church know about it, but, he is just sent to another church instead of getting punished, well why don't Catholics have some kind of big protest every time that happens to send the Vatican a message?
That would just end up getting the priest sent to another church. Protests are fine and all, but legal motions are more effective. Still, some DAs won't prosecute pedophile priests, like Steve Cooley hmya:
“He has refused to prosecute the pedophiles and child molesters that work and still work in the Catholic Church”.
triplemultiplex wrote:The Pope should just go ahead and issue a preemptive apology for the next molestation scandal that's bound to break in the Catholic church. Who's next? How 'bout Brazil? The Philippines? Cuba? Where else are there lots of Catholics?
I hear there's a letter for the Gelgameks already in progress.
Life isn't condessional, unlike jesus, people who are hurt by a crime generally don't accept a 'sorry i dun did wrong' because that doesn't take away any of the pain that was done to them, or discourage others from doing similar to others. Even if everyone involved in the hiding of priests engaging in this kind of activity was given a harsh prison sentence, they will have to live with these abuses.
Sexual abuse is something that f*cks up someone's whole life
I'm still 50:50 on weather molestation is harmful in itself or because of society's attitude towards sex (there are societies where things considered sexual abuse in England are perfectly normal, i hear in Japan parents masterbate their children to teach them how to do it for instance) but that attitude to sex is created primarilly by the church ...
I think we should focus on blaming the church for things that cause deaths of millions, like discouraging AIDS prevention methods that work, rather than abuse, though if we can attack both at once thats great ;P
angeldeb82 wrote:I mean, wasn't this apology letter to Ireland enough?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35960566/ns ... ws-europe/
What you need to understand is that in cases like this, simple apologies are NEVER enough. So long as justice isnt served those victims have every reason to be angry.
Catholicism won't end *not now anyways* and anyone who thinks so is a hypocrit. However, the calls for Benedict to resign will become louder, and I predict that by the end of the year...we will have (or in the process) of having a NEW pope!! Either Benedict will resign under pressure or he will die take your bets now
The catholic church is in trouble...nobody here is saying it is not, rates have been down significantly due to the fact of Apathathy, and to the fact that there are so many things that the church is against and people want more freedom to choose and pick what they want. However, rules are set up for a reason, and some of these things that we decide we "want" are not necessarily what we "need".
I hope people will one day wake up and figure out that materialism and convented wealth is never the answer to happiness
As for your answer about confessions: If it is said in a confessional booth, the preist does not take names, nor do he need to send you to prison. It is stricly confidential private things. I don't know why and It shouldn't be *because even psychologists who find out you killed must report you for safety reasons-personal well being*
There is just too much wrong. I wonder if one of my former priests was a molester before he died, and was just happy that he never got to me. But that is the problem....who to believe?? One story goes up and everyone panics.
I've got nothing more to say
Catholicism as we know it is dying, maybe all the money that pays for the Vatican staff and their properties can go to helping people. Maybe this CAN make the Catholic church a "force for good", as Catholics like to claim.
(I know there are many Catholics here that are good people, I am not talking about you, I am mad at the f*cking Vatican.)
Also known as gtaca2005
Member since: Thu Jan 06, 2005
most priests have that of a higher level have covered up wrongdoing due to all of these scandals.
Gramer fail much? Anyway, this really doesn't help aliviate the idea many people have of the Catholic church especially its higher officials nor the 'one story goes up' dismissal at the end; this is not a single issolated incident, and its not the first report of it this century either.
anyone who thinks so is a hypocrit.
A hypocrit is one who acts in a manner he condemns in others. Belief in the potential fall of the catholic church is not a command, and so must be an action. In order to be a hypocrit for an act, one must command the opposite of it, which in this case, i can only see to be a condemnation of those who believe the catholic church will eventually fall. No one, especially those you direct this at, and even the most ardent believer, have I seen comanding this, and therefore the claim of hypocracy most likely does not apply. It certainly does not apply to 'anyone.'
Perhaps a command to others incorporating the contary belief, such as that the church is not going to end naturally and one must work to actively bring about its destruction, would be rendered hypocritcal by the belief that it will fall anyway, but this is tangential. It is difficult for the action of belief to constitute hypocracy.
Catholicism won't end *not now anyways*
Everything ends in its time; even if the institution should last until humanity is wiped from the earth it will in due course go the way of the dinosaurs. That said i agree that it has faced far larger threats than this, and with a sixth of the words population in its grasp, I cannot see it not adapting as it did to the popularity of the native language churches and evolution; one can never fault it for its ability to change with the times.
No one will listen to these for he will likely die soon at his age anyway.the calls for Benedict to resign will become
rates have been down significantly due to
While apathy may have more than a little to do with it in a lot of cases, I cannot believe "i do what i want!" is the attitude motivating a lack of church attendance; the 'choosing to fall from god' idea is the framing method the Church has used since ancient times to explain those leaving the flock. Our needs should be the basis of morals and legislation, but the church knows no better than most what they are, in fact since it is based on what our needs were thought to be long ago it probably knows less, as is proven by its support of harmful policies that cause more suffering and death than they alieviate; our desires are not always correlated with our needs but there is a connection that cannot be denied, and if something is to go firmly against our desires, it must provide evidence that it is what we need, the only people providing this are scientists and i don't see many people clamoring for their rule, though the Catholic Church can fall back on unevidencable metaphysical punishments for our 'need' it then has to prove them; none of this likely enters the mind of one falling from the flock as i'm sure your aware. That their consciences tell them the behavior of the church is wrong in its focuses or acts may drive some away though; conversion to other faiths and the scandles probably have more impact still.
Remember that philosophical materialism, the idea that nothing but the 'physical' 'exists,' is not materialism in the sense of hedonism, nor as a drive for wealth or power, nor the shallow life of one who ignores relationships with friends and self improvement of the intilect, etc. Nor is it a naesicary prerequisite of fall from religion much less fall from one church of Christianity, one must keep in mind.
[/quote]convented wealth is never the answer to happiness
Happiness is based on genetic and environemntal factors; the former can be amended only by the latter. Scarce material goods are a prerequisite for education, employment and health, and the benefits that go with these; rates of happiness should improve with these. Desiring that we cannot achieve materially will lead to disapointment but one is more likely to leead a more fulfilled life if one has goods and without them cannot live at all let alone live happilly. Supposedly non-material pleasures of friendship, love and knowledge while in no way requiring goods are, it is a fact, more easilly obtained with them. An unrelenting drive for more, especially to be realitively wealthy compared to others who can achieve their basic mental and physical desires, will lead to one not apriciating what one has and living a life of unnesicary disapointment, but most do not have the goods nesicary for their needs (especially if the mental are included) to be fulfilled.
Confessional's private nature could mean that those who would otherwise have no help to turn to, in dealing with violent urges and being able to possibly not commit another crime, without being sent to prison or worse, can get the help they need; the private nature of the institution is not really the most questionable part it is that priests don't really offer much more than telling the net
anyone who would talk to you openly about what effect it has had on their lives?
Personal experience is not a reliable source of evidence; it is prone to the bias of human interpritation, has a small sample size almost by definition, and adds no objective knowledge to your repotoir. Meeting someone effected is the kind of thing you need to identify and eliminate the effects of before coming to your conclusions. So you can take that as a no.
That said, I'm NOT denying that its harmful. We need to identify the cause of the harm before we can work to alieviate it. The example of japan is just one of the many cultural examples of things considered molestation or child sexual abuse in our society that are not harmful in others. In such cases, it is the culture that is to blame and in fact needs to change to embrace 'molestation' so called. But if the abuse is cross-culturally harmful, it is to blame and cultures engaging in it must change.
Sources for that japan comment; http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUN ... /JAPAN.HTM like i said i wasn't sure about that one, it was just something that got me thinking when a friend mentioned it. I admit, NAMbLA does have a point in mentioning that cross cultural differences can show some abuses are not really harmful; but things like penetrative child rape are about as harmful as stabbing or stoning someone and that organisations attempts to legalise such actions discredit it in my eyes.
http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/po ... t/19420326
So, you discredit the idea that molestation harms kids because sometimes the parents want to hunt down the perverts and kill them? You do know that it is normal for parents to be very protective of their children,and even the idea of someone harming their kids..Well, you don't want to go there And at the risk of doing something you accused me of , of forming all my opinions about negative things or people I have experienced in my life ( instead of getting all my opinions from the internet like everyone should), I can tell you, I know some people who were molested as kids, or who were date raped as adults. I think they would strongly disagree with your opinion.It it not something you would ever want to have happen to you, or your kids if you have any. And when it is someone you know who did it, someone like a relative or a teacher or a religious leader, that makes it even worse. And you know what else. I wouldn't blame anyone who has been through that who would want to inflict violence on the person who did it. Yeah, I know that is really barbaric and violent of me, but whatever.
Niels0827 wrote:Looks like Pope Benedict Arnold is in trouble
http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/po ... t/19420326
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Anyway, saints aren't immaculate, so being a canonized saint is overrated.
This is what I saw in the post-air thread of 1403:
Definately some good parts, (mainly randy) but some parts were WAY overplayed and just in *my* opinion, the pope thing was uncalled for.
so far this season has been incredibly weak. I put this at #2 of the 3 right now. (Top one was last week, and the worst was Tiger...sorry)
Just as Chef (Isaac Hayes) enjoyed SP from the beginning until they got his group (Scientologists; then Hayes quit the show), mo303564 is doing something similar (he's not stopping watching the show, which is good): enjoying SP yet saying that "the pope thing was uncalled for" without saying why. What Cartman said was true. Over 200 deaf young boys were molested by a Priest in Milwaukee, for example, and the higher-up in the Church at the time said it was OK. And that higher up is now the current pope, Pope Ratzinger.
Here is what mo303564's observation inspired me to write:
First I'll state that I don't know why this thread re: Abuse Victims is here, and not posted in the Religion Thread
Next I'll state that the link in the first post in this Abuse Thread is to MS-NBC, and now that link is to other news. It does say outside the link about Ireland, but I write about the Priest from Milwaukee and his then boss, the now current Pope Ratziner. The Priest from Milwaukee molested 200 boys in a school for the deaf.
I really wish those of you who are Catholic would post as to why you are still Catholic because there are criminals in your Church. There are child molesters in your Church. And they continue to molest and molest and molest. Molesting one child is horrible. Molesting over 200 by one sucker is really bad. And he's still there. I mean, how criminal do you have to get in the Catholic Church before the Catholic Church says to get the hell out of here? Go pray, molester, the Church should say, but we don't want to see your butt in our facilities anymore. I just don't understand it. When they know that when we the public find out that they have some horrible, horrible Priests in the Church. Horrible Priests. We hear more about Priests than we hear about Nuns. I don't know what Mother Superior's do. I won't even go there. But what drives me up the wall is that I know a lot of Catholics. And one thing that bothers me is that as adults, people can do what they want. But if they want a job in the Church, it's all like: Young man, it's: "But you can't have sex." "Oh, all right, where do I go to get a penectomy?"
But wait a minute: You want a job with us in our Church young lady? Well you can't have sex. "Oh. Okay." I mean, there is no other major religious group that I know of in my country, the United States of America where the clergy can't have sex. Let's put it this way: you can't have sex unless you want your butt spanked. Unless that's the kind of sex you like. I don't know.
It is horrible. I used to wonder why is that in the Catholic Church you can't have sex. I looked it up, I read about it, I talked to Priests about it, and as I understand it, centuries ago the Priests could have sex. And the property on which the Church would hold services would be somebody's ranch, somebody's farm, or home that had a lot of property. And that person was made the head of the Catholic Church in that neighborhood. And when that person died, instead of the Catholic Church getting the land, the man's wife got the land in the man's will. So the Church realized that if the property owner was not allowed to get married, or to have sex, then the Church would get the property.
I'm not making this up. It's part of history. The Catholic Church could get the land and money if the guy did not get married, have sex, or at least act like he's not having sex. Then after he died, the Catholic Church would inherit. The Church did not like losing the land. So the Church would not allow the land owner to get married. It's all about the Church making money. Because the Catholic Church knew that if their Priests didn't have sex, that when the Priest died the Church would get the property. And this goes on even until this day. It's not a multi-billion dollar industry. It's a multi-trillion dollar industry. With property, and industries, and property - the wealthiest Religion on the planet.
And the Nuns - they couldn't have sex either. And some of them, well they look good too. I'll never forget Sister Kathleen (joking here). But they can't get married either. I tell you, it's horrible, it's terrible, to do away with natural urges that God Almighty gave the rest of us. Now be careful - she's a Nun. What does Nun mean? She's not having none.
So now, we have sex scandal after sex scandal after sex scandal. We now have these perverts, absolute perverts who like to rape boys. Men who like to rape boys. Rape is a Sin - but apparently not in the Catholic Church. And not in Milwaukee, where the Priest there raped over 200 young boys. So they went to a higher official, who said: "Oh, that's Okay. That's all right. We'll pray for them." But Your Excellency, (they like to be called Your Excellency and so forth), he raped over 200 boys. "Oh, no, no, that's all right." "Maybe he should have a penectomy?" "No, No, that's all right. He'll have to take it in his own hand " And he (the high official) wouldn't let the Priest go turn himself into the authorities. And the boys who were raped were all deaf kids in a school for the deaf.
And the high official in the Church who would not do anything is the current Pope, Pope Ratzinger. He is the guy that was the leading authority who let that pervert go. He is now the Pope after letting that fellow go for raping 200 boys.
Now people want the Pope to leave, but the Pope won't leave. It's a big thing to be the Pope. You are not such a big shot if you leave being the Pope. What we are dealing with is one of the biggest and wealthiest businesses in the world, one of the most twisted businesses in the world, and they have this criminality in them.
So if you are Catholic, why are you still a Catholic
It is just disgusting. Over 200 deaf boys in this Catholic School. And the head of that school raped them one at a time. Some of the boys were raped more than once. 200 little boys raped by the head of that school. Why on Earth wasn't that guy sent to prison? And the current Pope was the guy in charge of delivering punishment. And Ratzinger did nothing about it.
Why don't Arch Bishops lead a movement to remove this Pope on grounds that Ratzinger did nothing about this rapist
I would love to see Arch Bishops or even Cardinals say enough is enough is enough and call for an international inquiry and investigation into Ratzinger and punishment be meted out accordingly. We don't see any guts by the Arch Bishops and if we don't see the lay people (watch it - nothing sexy here) the lay people -those are the people who put money in the Catholic Church, they should get the word to the Vatican that this injustice not be tolerated, and the Pope should be forced out of his office, and for the rest of Ratzinger's life he should know that he defiled the Church, that he did the wrong thing, he defiled human nature and the rest of human beings.
Why are Catholics so silent on this? On the ultimate of criminality of your Church? It's disgusting. It is so sad. And the Catholic Church will not survive this. But the Catholic Church thinks they will survive this. But they won't. Not this time. Can you imagine the lives of the 200 who were brutalized by this? It's horrible. I can't even think of of the proper expletives to use. What do the non-clergy think? Something is wrong. Clearly wrong.
It's just disgusting. Really, really disgusting. I don't know what's wrong with Catholics. If it was a Baptist, they would go after this guy with whips and brooms. This Pope is a rapist; he is part of the crime. He left a rapist alone.
And talk about covering it up. They think that it will go out of the headlines. Riiiiiight. It is so sad. So disgusting. Ratzinger must step down. It doesn't matter whether there were 200 raped by the one guy or just one - it's all messed up.
Why wasn't this Pope arrested for obstruction of justice and handcuffed? There is no individual anywhere in the world who lives is a society where if you rape 200 children - and in a school for the deaf - and get away with it! It's all there - it's been on every network now for 2 weeks.
Now the Vatican did go berserk in Africa where a Priest married a woman. The Vatican ex-communicated him, and forced him to divorce his wife. The Vatican gets furious about the actions of this Priest, but does nothing about a Priest who rapes. Why can't the Police do anything? Is it because the Police Chief in Rome is Catholic? He probably is. But how can the law of God in the Catholic Religion say that once you become a Priest you can go ahead and rape young boys.
I would not be surprised if this Pope gets away with it. I thought Religion was about morality and decency. Ratzinger must step down.
zzyzx 1 wrote:So if you are Catholic, why are you still a Catholic
That's like asking "If you're dead, then why are you still dead?" Some people take their faith seriously.
I'm not trying to sound mean or anything, but you're making Catholicism sound like it's all about raping & sex.
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Pull your fucking pants up!
AxayPaulene wrote:I'm not trying to sound mean or anything, but you're making Catholicism sound like it's all about raping & sex.
No, not mean And not Catholicism all about raping & sex. Just the leaders. And the head of the Church, Pope Ratzinger. Not the followers. I applaud you for taking your faith seriously.
But my question was why are Catholics followers of leaders who rape? Having leaders who rape and commit sins - they should be kicked out and not followed, don't you think? Keep the faith - but why follow criminals? I think a new Pope is in order.
Why is there no inquiry with the goal of kicking Ratzinger's sorry ass out of the Pope's seat after he allowed that Priest from Milwaukee to remain a Priest and not throw that guy out after raping 200 deaf young boys, some of these multiple times?
My comments were to ask followers to say why they follow these people. I did mention what I thought Baptists would do to their leaders.
Still, no one answered. I think Ratzinger should be arrested, as should that Milwaukee Priest. An apology doesn't cut it because if I rob a bank, and I say "I'm sorry," do I not still go to jail? Well not in the Catholic Church if the topic is molestation. But the faithful? I did not question the Catholic Faith - only the keeping of it's criminal leaders.
As you say, if you're dead, you're dead - you can't do anything about it. But if you're Catholic and your Pope is a criminal, there is something you can do about it. Lobby for your Arch Bishop to get together with other Bishops to start an international inquiry, for example.
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