Ask a Muslim (no wisecracks please)

[Niels0827]

So if the scriptures and passages can be twisted and distorted in countless ways, why do you base your life around these scriptures? Something that can be interpreted in so many ways evidently has no meaning at all.

There is a starving man in a canoe in the middle of the ocean. Give him a fishing net and he'll catch a fish. Give him the Bible or the Qu'ran and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

[ShaneHaughey]

qharvard wrote :
> ShaneHaughey wrote :
> > Niels0827 wrote :
> > > thellama73 wrote :
> > > I've met many die hard Christians who have never read the Bible and it
> > > baffles me. How can they take a book as the guide for how to live if they
> > > don't know what it says?
> > > ___________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > Because if they read the Bible, they face the probability of becoming
> > > atheist. Many people are atheists BECAUSE they've read the Bible. Same
> > > thing with the Qu'ran.
> > >
> > > It'll open up people's eyes in a much different way than it was intended.
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > qharvard wrote:
> > > 2:191 is out of context and not exact. The [non-believers] part is not
> > > ___________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > It's not out of context. The non-believers are who the book was referring
> > > to. Throughout the Qu'ran, the sole and primary "antagonists" are
> > > 'non-believers' (i.e. non-Muslims, not just atheists).
> >
> >
> > Extremists don't read their chosen texts because extremists, by and large,
> attach
> > certain meanings to certain passages and don't wish to move beyond that. Moving
> > beyond that threatens their world-view.
>
> I have met some borderline extremists, and they do read their text. I'm talking about
> most religions here not just my own. That is why I don't like arguing over scripture,
> because people can twist it anyway they see fit. So why would I do the same thing,
> just to fit what I am saying?

Most extremists do not read their text- studies have shown this conclusively. And I too speak of all religions- extremist Christians and Catholics were the most likely to not read their holy text. Take the WBC- if they knew anything about the Bible beyond a few passages that the head of that damnable congregation twisted to fulfill a personal agenda filled with his own personal hatred, then they wouldn't exist.

Terrorists/Extremists may read their holy text, but when they do, do they actually *read* the texts, or are they looking for validation of their own personal world view?

[qharvard]

Niels0827 wrote :
> So if the scriptures and passages can be twisted and distorted in countless
> ways, why do you base your life around these scriptures? Something that can
> be interpreted in so many ways evidently has no meaning at all.
>
> There is a starving man in a canoe in the middle of the ocean. Give him a
> fishing net and he'll catch a fish. Give him the Bible or the Qu'ran and
> he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

lol, why would you give a starving man a book? Wouldn't you instead rescue him, feed him, and try to return him to good health, help him find his way home?

You can give me a dollar bill. I can go to someone and make up a ton of sh*t about the dollar bill, what all the symbols mean, what the colors mean, what the letters mean. I can make up all kinds of stuff. Does that mean I can't go and spend that dollar? Ofcourse I can, just because I call a fly a truck doesn't make the fly a truck. It is still a fly.

I cannot even attempt to get someone to understand why I chose to believe in god, it is a very personal choice of mine. I make a lot of choices, and this is one of them.

[qharvard]

ShaneHaughey wrote :

> Most extremists do not read their text- studies have shown this conclusively. And I
> too speak of all religions- extremist Christians and Catholics were the most likely
> to not read their holy text. Take the WBC- if they knew anything about the
> Bible beyond a few passages that the head of that damnable congregation twisted to
> fulfill a personal agenda filled with his own personal hatred, then they wouldn't
> exist.
>
> Terrorists/Extremists may read their holy text, but when they do, do they actually
> *read* the texts, or are they looking for validation of their own personal world
> view?


Definitely the latter. It has to be the latter, because there is a ton of good vibes that they completely miss.

I feel what you are saying.

[ShaneHaughey]

qharvard wrote :
> Niels0827 wrote :
> > So if the scriptures and passages can be twisted and distorted in countless
> > ways, why do you base your life around these scriptures? Something that can
> > be interpreted in so many ways evidently has no meaning at all.
> >
> > There is a starving man in a canoe in the middle of the ocean. Give him a
> > fishing net and he'll catch a fish. Give him the Bible or the Qu'ran and
> > he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.
>
> lol, why would you give a starving man a book? Wouldn't you instead rescue him, feed
> him, and try to return him to good health, help him find his way home?
>
> You can give me a dollar bill. I can go to someone and make up a ton of sh*t about
> the dollar bill, what all the symbols mean, what the colors mean, what the letters
> mean. I can make up all kinds of stuff. Does that mean I can't go and spend that
> dollar? Ofcourse I can, just because I call a fly a truck doesn't make the fly a
> truck. It is still a fly.
>
> I cannot even attempt to get someone to understand why I chose to believe in god, it
> is a very personal choice of mine. I make a lot of choices, and this is one of them.


It was not a literal interpretation. It is supposed to mean that it is better to help someone as people directly rather than use faith as a shield.

[qharvard]

ShaneHaughey wrote :

> It was not a literal interpretation. It is supposed to mean that it is better to help
> someone as people directly rather than use faith as a shield.

Alright, got it.

Faith as a shield? Very complex thing, at least for me.

How about this. The bill of rights and constitution are always under a bombardment of people that want to manipulate it to serve their purpose. They lie about it, try to manipulate it so that it servers their purpose. It does not mean that those documents are any less of a very special text.

Even the freedom of speech. People are always trying to manipulate it to serve their purpose. Is hate speech allowed because we have the freedom of speech? Can we tell people to kill someone because, hey, we have the freedom of speech? I would say no.

[thellama73]

qharvard wrote :
>Is hate speech allowed because we have the freedom of speech? Can we tell
> people to kill someone because, hey, we have the freedom of speech? I would say no.

I would say yes to both, but hey, I'm one of them wacky Libertarians you hear tell about.

[qharvard]

thellama73 wrote :
> qharvard wrote :
> >Is hate speech allowed because we have the freedom of speech? Can we tell
> > people to kill someone because, hey, we have the freedom of speech? I would say
> no.
>
> I would say yes to both, but hey, I'm one of them wacky Libertarians you hear tell
> about.

Have you watched Justice (with Michael Sandal) on ITunesU or on youtube? It gives a very good introduction into the basis of libertarianism, and a few other isms as well. It is quite good.

[qharvard]

Ok, so, I'ma jet. It has been very interesting. You have been more than kind and I appreciate the easy questions.

I cannot pretend to be a very smart person, nor am I trying to, but I can say that sometimes it is hard not to go with my first thought, reaction, or perception.

Often I have to control myself enough to take a risk and ask a few questions in order to begin to understand. It is easier to just base all of my decisions on gut reactions, but that doesn't always end in amiable results. I hope that others can share this experience.

Also, every time I get called "token" I die a little inside. THANKS!

[M00ndragon69]

Qharvard, I was wondering if you are South Park fan, if so, how many years have you been watching the show, and are you planning on staying at the board and posting in other threads and getting to know the rest of us regular posters.


Triple, you say that religion makes starting wars easier, to that I say, not everyone who believes in supernatural things is going to blindly follow some leader who invokes the name of their God. Some people are followers some people think for themselves. That is true of both both religious and non religious people. Even if there was no religion or belief in the supernatural, there would still be assh*les who would want more power, and they would still think of a way to get people to go to war for them.

[debsid]

Go here to see more images of Muhammed:
http://current.com/1ep8g4c

[qharvard]

M00ndragon69 wrote :
> Qharvard, I was wondering if you are South Park fan, if so, how many years
> have you been watching the show, and are you planning on staying at the
> board and posting in other threads and getting to know the rest of us
> regular posters.
>
>
> Triple, you say that religion makes starting wars easier, to that I say,
> not everyone who believes in supernatural things is going to blindly follow
> some leader who invokes the name of their God. Some people are followers
> some people think for themselves. That is true of both both religious and
> non religious people. Even if there was no religion or belief in the
> supernatural, there would still be assh*les who would want more power, and
> they would still think of a way to get people to go to war for them.

I am a South Park fan. I have been watching for years. Unfortunately I don't have the bandwidth to stick around for long. We will see what happens.

Peace.

[triplemultiplex]

M00ndragon69 wrote :
> Triple, you say that religion makes starting wars easier, to that I say,
> not everyone who believes in supernatural things is going to blindly follow
> some leader who invokes the name of their God. Some people are followers
> some people think for themselves. That is true of both both religious and
> non religious people. Even if there was no religion or belief in the
> supernatural, there would still be assh*les who would want more power, and
> they would still think of a way to get people to go to war for them.

I would agree. And I wish that was the case even more often than it is.

Back to Islam.
Others have touched on this, but the extremist element of this religion does the same thing those Westboro crackpots do; they quote mine their religious texts for any passages that reinforce the radical views they already have. And because it's the (insert holy book here), those quotes carry all the authority they've assigned that book.

This is authority that certainly isn't deserved given the history of these texts. They were compiled generations after the main protagonists lived from disparate sources. They've been translated umpteen times. They've been edited by kings and religious heads to suit their need. To accept any of them as the literal word of god takes the willful suppression of logic, reason and good old common sense.

Here's my interpretation of these 'sacred' texts: A bunch of religious leaders desperate to stay in power need something to placate the peons, so they cobble together a bunch of century-old anecdotes about their god, throw in some otherwise secular life lessons in a religious context and slap 'em into a book. That book gets distributed and edited & translated by every society it encounters for a thousand years or six. Then a person picks it up, quote mines something they like, turns around and says, "GOD HATES FAGS!!!" or blows up an embassy?
Gimme a break.

[M00ndragon69]

Yes, all religions have extremists. I am not aware of any pagan extremists, but if you know anything about modern Paganism, you know there are possibly thousands of forms of it in this country, since we have no sacred text, we aren't as organized as the more mainstream religions, and different covens draw on different cultures when it comes to the Gods or spirits they worship. Actually come to think of it, I have read so something about some pagans who draw on the Norse traditions, who are also Neo Nazi douche bags. However, that does not infact mean that everyone who identifies themselves with the Norse pagan traditions approves of the sh*t Nazis spew about being the superior race and all that crap. As I recall, the site where I read this was called Heathens against hate, Heathens being what many modern Norse pagans call themselves.

That what it takes to make someone into a violent extremist. It isn't a belief in the supernatural or in life after death. It is thinking for whatever reason you and your little clique of assh*les are so much better than everyone else, and that you have the right to push everyone else around, and treat them like they are ignorant or evil, and that it is ok to dehumanize them. It is those attitudes that lead to people bombing others, or picketing funerals with their "God hates Fags" signs. Think about that.

[Worthy]

qharvard I saw on your previous post the you believe it is in poor taste to draw the prophet Muhammed and that you disagree with the South Park creators trying to do it.

So what I want to know is what is your oppinion on other religions getting mocked by South Park and do you believe that it's okay to mock other religions, but not the Islam religion?

The reason I ask because this is how it comes across by Comedy Central when they allow jokes about other religions, but as soon as Islam gets insulted it's all censor bars and bleeps? (seriously the Jews are always getting the mickey taken out of them on South Park and every other religion has been insulted by South Park too).

BTW I mean no offence with this post and appologies if I do so unintentionally as I believe it should either be okay to mock every religion or not okay to mock every religion (which I think was the theme of episode 200 and 201 where the celebs and the gingers wanted whatever it was making Muhammed un-mockable).