Wanna Conspiracy Debate?

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triplemultiplex
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby triplemultiplex » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:17 am

(ugly)Bob wrote:So... what religion are all of you?


It's been a while since I last discussed my own personal history with religion so here it goes.

I was raised Catholic and attended weekly services whether I wanted to or not. I started out at a Catholic school, but we moved when I was in 2nd Grade and there was no Catholic school in what I now consider my "hometown". After that I had to get to the church like an hour before mass to attend Catechism classes.

Now my family wasn't SUPER religious; church was just something you had to do unless we were out of town. We were there regularly and my mother sang in the choir (and still does). But at home, it wasn't that big of a deal. We only prayed before meals on holidays or when we had family visiting.

I really hated those damn Catechism classes, or "CCD" as it was known. I considered it to be school on the weekend and I would have much rather been watching cartoons. Apparently my unwillingness to be there rubbed off on my classroom behavior as I have a report card from when I was in 3rd grade that says a lot:
Image
It says:
"Jacob is my skeptic. There isn't anything he doesn't question. He (keeps) me on my toes. Most of the time, he stimulates the rest of the class."
(I don't recall if I've ever used my real name around here; well there it is).

So the root of my eventual atheism may have been as simple as I didn't want to be at fucking Sunday school.

Through a combination of an interest in science topics and many a night parked in front of the Discovery Channel, I had come to the conclusion that this whole religion thing was total bullshit by the time I was 14. I think that is when I decided God was almost certainly created by man. A later high school course in world religions reinforced this conclusion.

So for the rest of my youth, I allowed myself to be dragged to church with decreasing frequency. I never went through what Catholics call "Confirmation" and stopped going to Sunday school.

Strangely, I never recall those latter two being an issue in the family. I have since come to the conclusion that my family is primarily into their religion for the same reason that I think most people are: the fellowship with other people in the community. It's not about listening to the man in a dress standing under an ornately decorated stage surrounded by prepubescent boys in dresses. It's about being part of an "in" group.

To this day, I'm not sure my immediate family knows the extent of my non-theism. Religion is not something we ever talk about. When I visit on holidays, I'll tag along and pay lip service to that side show. The pressure to conform is remarkable. sh*t, I even eat the little cracker, just to avoid a furtive glance. But witnessing a Catholic mass with the objectivity of an atheist can be entertaining when you only do one every year or two. You can tell that the whole point of the exercise is supposed to be stability, routine and conformity.
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(ugly)Bob
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby (ugly)Bob » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:27 am

triplemultiplex wrote:
(ugly)Bob wrote:So... what religion are all of you?


It's been a while since I last discussed my own personal history with religion so here it goes.

I was raised Catholic and attended weekly services whether I wanted to or not. I started out at a Catholic school, but we moved when I was in 2nd Grade and there was no Catholic school in what I now consider my "hometown". After that I had to get to the church like an hour before mass to attend Catechism classes.

Now my family wasn't SUPER religious; church was just something you had to do unless we were out of town. We were there regularly and my mother sang in the choir (and still does). But at home, it wasn't that big of a deal. We only prayed before meals on holidays or when we had family visiting.

I really hated those damn Catechism classes, or "CCD" as it was known. I considered it to be school on the weekend and I would have much rather been watching cartoons. Apparently my unwillingness to be there rubbed off on my classroom behavior as I have a report card from when I was in 3rd grade that says a lot:
Image
It says:
"Jacob is my skeptic. There isn't anything he doesn't question. He (keeps) me on my toes. Most of the time, he stimulates the rest of the class."
(I don't recall if I've ever used my real name around here; well there it is).

So the root of my eventual atheism may have been as simple as I didn't want to be at fucking Sunday school.

Through a combination of an interest in science topics and many a night parked in front of the Discovery Channel, I had come to the conclusion that this whole religion thing was total bullshit by the time I was 14. I think that is when I decided God was almost certainly created by man. A later high school course in world religions reinforced this conclusion.

So for the rest of my youth, I allowed myself to be dragged to church with decreasing frequency. I never went through what Catholics call "Confirmation" and stopped going to Sunday school.

Strangely, I never recall those latter two being an issue in the family. I have since come to the conclusion that my family is primarily into their religion for the same reason that I think most people are: the fellowship with other people in the community. It's not about listening to the man in a dress standing under an ornately decorated stage surrounded by prepubescent boys in dresses. It's about being part of an "in" group.

To this day, I'm not sure my immediate family knows the extent of my non-theism. Religion is not something we ever talk about. When I visit on holidays, I'll tag along and pay lip service to that side show. The pressure to conform is remarkable. sh*t, I even eat the little cracker, just to avoid a furtive glance. But witnessing a Catholic mass with the objectivity of an atheist can be entertaining when you only do one every year or two. You can tell that the whole point of the exercise is supposed to be stability, routine and conformity.


Ha! i have to be honest but that is not as bad as people innocently asking your religion and upon hearing your non religious beliefs, they shake you down so hard you practically have to lie and say your a *insert religion following* i usually say Christian as i know a little about it and if i was dragged to Church i would know what to do. *sing, jiggle a few beads and sip wine*
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Unassumption
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby Unassumption » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:54 am

When I wasn't sure about religion, I used to talk about it every chance I got.Now I'm comfortably an atheist, I don't care about the topic much. I haven't found many new issues to talk or think about in years and all fit my beliefs. I know people haven't thought about these issues yet and want to talk about them, it's annoying when I see people who've already talked the thing to death themselves bitch that other younger people who haven't talked about it yet are talking about it a lot, as if the fact they've finished with it means everyone in the world has to be.

Wasn't brought up that religious. Dad goes along with mum, and she denies the trinity and incarnation of Jesus, and thinks God is evil and jacks it to our suffering. But calls herself Church of England to be patriotic. Took a while to realize that wasn't the mainstream Christian view! I went to a C of E primary school. I never bought the Jesus thing, as he didn't seem to fit with the OT. I kinda liked YHWH (for the same reason I loved Hitler - all that slaughter was so metal!) and kept the OT until I joined this forum, though by 7th grade when I played spot the difference between the OT and norse myth, read how Anglicanism founded, religious wars and evil sh*t the church did when it had more power, became a liberal fag who stopped loving Hitler and YHWH, and met my first creationist (science or god you ask? *drops god*). Eh, sorry for the long story.
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M00ndragon69
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby M00ndragon69 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:48 am

Here is my story if anyone wants to know..My parents were hippies..When I was a kid, they didn't really have any set religious beliefs..We didn't go to church..I think the one time I did go to church as a kid, we went with my parent's Mormon friends, I don't really remember it, because I was pretty young. What I remember when I was growing up, was even though my parents didn't really put a label on their beliefs, they had studied a little Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, and my dad had a book on the Occult called The Black Arts, and my mom had a huge collection of these magazines called Man Myth and Magic..Man, Myth, and Magic was a series of magazines that were published in the 60's, and there were articles about religion, mythology, Shamanism, astrology, tarot cards and other things related to the occult. Those were really interesting. I can remember looked at them a lot.. I remember when I was in grade school, I started getting interested in mythology and I did ask my parents some questions about religion. I can remember reading books on Greek and Norse mythology and some things on the faerie lore from Ireland.. Also, my favorite kinds of movies were fantasy movies, and supernatural horror movies..

It probably isn't surprising I got into Paganism. I didn't like the way Christians I knew from school shoved their religion down people's throat. I didn't like ( and still do not like) the judgemental, condesending, tone of their religious/morality lectures..And I sure as Hell do not want to worship a God who would damn someone to Hell for all eternity..I didn't want to be an Atheist either..I always kind of felt like there was some truth to the supernatural stories people tell..

And, then, when I was 15, some things happened, and I met some people who were Wiccan..And I started reading some books on Wicca..And, as the years went by, I read more into it, and worked on spells and divination..And, met more people who practice magick and/or identify themselves as Pagan..Some of those people are still my friends..Some of them are assh*les, but I am not going to change my beliefs because of those people..Because, no matter what religion or non religion they were, they would still be assh*les. And if one of those individuals tries to f*ck with me again, or tries saying all the people who practice magick in our area should follow what he says, I am going to use the debating skills I learned on here against him..And royally own his ass. Because, well, you know I don't like people trying to control me( and trying to tell me what I should believe and think), and the way this individual also tried to control my friends has really been pissing me off lately.

Anyway, I am not sure what my point is, except, this is why I am the way I am..And, yes, there also was that story I told about how in high school I also had some Christian Youth Group friends who stopped hanging out with me because I didn't go to church or Youth Group with them..And, one day, one of them tried to get me to read the Bible, but I kind of refused. And, I didn't stop reading Stephen King or watching Beavis and Butthead,even though they tried shaming me into it..LOL, and they didn't even know I was talking to people about witchcraft behind their backs, they would have freaked..LOL..Anyway, that whole experience wasn't the reason why I wasn't Christian. I had never been one and I didn't want to be one.But, it was the reason why I think the people who were in that youth group are assh*les. I thought they liked me for me. But, it seemed like they only liked me because they thought they could change me. And, that pissed me off. Basically, I don't ask people to change what they believe. That is their choice. And, I expect the same respect in return, and anytime I have gotten into a fight with someone about their beliefs, it was probably because they said something that sounded like they were pushing their beliefs on other people.
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RedStone2
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby RedStone2 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:58 am

triplemultiplex wrote:The Soviet Union might beg to differ. Plus that was during a war where the media didn't report on stories that might compromise the war effort. Not because they had to, but because they recognized it was in the national interest.

I suppose the Soviets can 'beg' all they want. Assuming your claim is true, the fact still remains: The Manhattan Project maintained the security and secrecy required to successfully accomplish the mission. That's all that matters. The secret was kept to the degree it needed to be kept. The point stands: Large secrets have been kept.

triplemultiplex wrote: Plus that was during a war where the media didn't report on stories that might compromise the war effort. Not because they had to, but because they recognized it was in the national interest.
OK--so you're admitting that circumstances can be created or can arise....in which huge secrets can successfully be kept? I agree.

triplemultiplex wrote:Because both of those are equally plausible :roll:
That's amazing, not only do you spout Trutherism, but you go so far as to deny the existence of Al Qaeda itself. Impresseive. That's like being a Holocaust denier who also denies the existence of Germany.

I have no idea what you're talking about. "Trutherism"? With a capital 'T', no less? You've lost me. Sorry. My points stand: Hundreds of people kept 9/11 under wraps for years on end. The Gulf of Tonkin was successfully concealed from the public for half a century...until all the guilty parties were either dead or drooling in an old folks home somewhere.

In other words, the argument that "they could never keep it a secret" fails over and over.

triplemultiplex wrote:Since the only "Area 51 whistleblowers" that have been "marginalized" by the "mainstream media" are UFO cranks talking about aliens space ships...
Ever heard of the Disclosure Project? Go to their website...check out their two-part "Executive Summary" video.

This is a group of about 500 insiders--military generals, admirals, high level intelligence officers, aviation officials, technology experts in the space industry--all coming forward to blow the whistle on the government's cover-up regarding UFOs, ETs, Area 51, on and on. They had their initial press conference in 2000 (at the Washington Press Club). Here was one of their selected witnesses from that morning (2 minute video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQl7t62q71o

Military generals and admirals are "UFO cranks"? That's a bit of a stretch, I would say.

triplemultiplex wrote:Isn't Senator Inouye talking specifically about the behavior of the CIA in funding and arming the Contras there? Out of context it is easy to make that sound like he means there is literally a shadow government ...
That IS the "context". A short statement at the end of the hearings in which he warned of a "shadow government". He literally meant "shadow government" as that was the term he used. (?)

And yes, I think you're on to something: Criminal elements within the CIA form a large part of an illicit shadow government. You're absolutely right. And San Jose Mercury News reporter, Gary Webb, gave his life exposing the CIA and how the sum total of America's supply of illicit drugs is brought to us by the CIA...with George HW Bush being the director of the CIA during the time period Webb was researching.

This crime syndicate operating out of various government agencies and using the proceeds from its various criminal endeavors (drugs, gun-running, human trafficking, etc) is able to buy its own "air force and navy"...just as Inouye described. And just as Webb documented. And then ended up with two bullets in his head.

A number of the pilots who were compelled to fly these airplanes with huge shipments of cocaine into US military bases...have come forward. Go to the link below...scroll down a bit past a third of the way...look for the name "Chip Tatum"...follow any of the links.
http://themurkynews.blogspot.com/2008/04/introduction-connecting-current-events_15.html
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby (ugly)Bob » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:27 pm

M00ndragon69 wrote:I don't ask people to change what they believe. That is their choice. And, I expect the same respect in return, and anytime I have gotten into a fight with someone about their beliefs, it was probably because they said something that sounded like they were pushing their beliefs on other people.



i am very happy you can stand up for your beliefs. i just lie about adopting their faith, denouncing my real morals and practically vowing never to set foot in their line of vision again. but... i feel i should begin anyway... its that when people are angry... protecting their faith from nothing but a mere idea... they become these hate filled trolls... oh the anger. it actually makes me feel like a little kid, trembling before his fears.


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anyone want to share their life story about their religion?
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Unassumption
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby Unassumption » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:44 pm

The Gulf of Tonkin was successfully concealed

Then how do we all know about it? It was secret, for a short period of time. Secrets can be kept from ordinary folk (under special circumstances we're not in) but only for a brief period.

Assuming your claim is true, the fact still remains: The Manhattan Project maintained the security and secrecy required to successfully accomplish the mission.

Except it wasn't secret to other powerful figures (countries) who's interests differed from them, meaning it came out quickly. Your conspiracy, like most, requires ALL powerful people to be on the same page and ALL of them to be in on it, which will never be the case. The Manhattan 'conspiracy' had a limited shelf life it only needed to be secret for a few years. Ignoring the whole USSR, just to push your BS, a perfect example of real problems being pushed under the rug (was Hitler in on it too?) to advance your fairy tale.

"Trutherism"? With a capital 'T', no less?

Like it or not, you're not unique in your views. There are many other people saying similar (but different in the details because it's made up) sh*t like with UFO stories. You probably got some of your ideas (consciously or not) from them.

Military generals and admirals are "UFO cranks"?

Argument from authority much. Yes they are UFO cranks, give us some evidence or stop relying on your 'authority' as a general to tell us the aliens (which differ between each account, like the 'gods') exist. And did 9/11? Eh it's like the Truthers, they differ in who they think did it and why, only united by denying the truth :P

That IS the "context".

Then why did you not only not state it, but use the quote to support something it clearly wasn't intended for? Because you're deluding yourself into thinking this is evidence for something it clearly isn't.
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RedStone2
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby RedStone2 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:51 am

Unassumption wrote:Then how do we all know about it [the Gulf of Tonkin false flag]? It was secret, for a short period of time.
OK so...you're not reading my comments? It was not a secret for a "short period of time". It was secret for almost half a century. In fact, I wasn't aware that you had known of this. You're telling me you know all about the military/industrial complex's Gulf of Tonkin false flag which made the entirety of the Vietnam War into a fraud and essentially the mass murder of 58,000 American soldier boys (and a million Vietnamese)?

To this day, 90+% of Americans know diddly-squat about the Gulf of Tonkin and the resulting mass murder implications. They'd be piling into the streets in an uproar.

Unassumption wrote:Argument from authority much.

I didn't make an "argument from authority". I'm just saying your out-of-hand dismissal of people who are very likely knowledgeable insiders on the matter...is silly.

And I did present evidence--the video testimony link...the Disclosure Project web site...and the tip about their 2-part executive summary documentaries.

Unassumption wrote:Except it wasn't secret to other powerful figures (countries) who's interests differed from them, meaning it came out quickly.
Re-read my comments. You're making arguments already answered. Again...the level of secrecy that was required to accomplish the mission was kept. The secret was kept as secret as it needed to be. A gigantic undertaking was successfully concealed. End of the road for this idea "but they could never keep it a secret".
(ugly)Bob
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby (ugly)Bob » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:43 am

Redstone and Unassumption

what are you trying to get at??
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RedStone2
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Re: Wanna Religious Debate?

Postby RedStone2 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:20 am

(ugly)Bob wrote:Redstone and Unassumption

what are you trying to get at??
I've simply been addressing the false notion that "conspiracies are impossible because they could never keep it secret". That's just plain ridiculous. 9/11, for example...whether you believe it was a guy wearing a bathrobe and slippers (Bin Laden), 10 thousand miles away in a cave with a cell phone...or whether it was an 'inside job' from criminals inside our own government...either way it required at least hundreds of people to keep silent for years on end leading up to the event. End of the road for this notion "they could never keep it secret".
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Re: Wanna Conspiracy Debate?

Postby Big-Will » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:54 am

Title change, since the thread is moving towards conspiracies.

As for the incident at the Gulf of Tonkin, there's debate on a second attack. I don't know what there was to cover up except maybe a trumped-up allegation of a second attack.
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M00ndragon69
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Re: Wanna Conspiracy Debate?

Postby M00ndragon69 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:04 am

Thanks Uglybob..And, I can understand when people have trouble telling other people what their real beliefs are..A couple friends of mine can not come out to certain family members about being Pagan or practicing magick. It can be hard dealing with that kind of pressure. But, if you are not dealing with family members, but just people who may not be your friends if you don't believe the way you do, I would say stand up for what you believe in. Lots of people have friends with different beliefs than their own, and if someone is truly your friend you can be honest with them about what you believe, and even if they don't agree, they will still be your friend. You don't want fake friends, they are more trouble than they are worth. In the end, you end up bending over backwards to keep them, but they still move on. You don't want those kind of people, and decent friendships require honesty on the part of both people. It can be hard standing up for what you believe, but at least you can find people who respect you for it..And, even more importantly, you will respect yourself.
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Re: Wanna Conspiracy Debate?

Postby (ugly)Bob » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:26 am

M00ndragon69 wrote:Thanks Uglybob..And, I can understand when people have trouble telling other people what their real beliefs are..A couple friends of mine can not come out to certain family members about being Pagan or practicing magick. It can be hard dealing with that kind of pressure. But, if you are not dealing with family members, but just people who may not be your friends if you don't believe the way you do, I would say stand up for what you believe in. Lots of people have friends with different beliefs than their own, and if someone is truly your friend you can be honest with them about what you believe, and even if they don't agree, they will still be your friend. You don't want fake friends, they are more trouble than they are worth. In the end, you end up bending over backwards to keep them, but they still move on. You don't want those kind of people, and decent friendships require honesty on the part of both people. It can be hard standing up for what you believe, but at least you can find people who respect you for it..And, even more importantly, you will respect yourself.


yeah. this is actually a first in a while where i have come out with my beliefs and not have someone wring my neck... but since i am graduating soon, ill be leaving those fags for good, and rot in their southern cross lined coffins (Jesus' stake)

RedStone2 wrote:
(ugly)Bob wrote:Redstone and Unassumption

what are you trying to get at??
I've simply been addressing the false notion that "conspiracies are impossible because they could never keep it secret". That's just plain ridiculous. 9/11, for example...whether you believe it was a guy wearing a bathrobe and slippers (Bin Laden), 10 thousand miles away in a cave with a cell phone...or whether it was an 'inside job' from criminals inside our own government...either way it required at least hundreds of people to keep silent for years on end leading up to the event. End of the road for this notion "they could never keep it secret".


i don't believe in conspiracies, i believe in facts. i like to hear their take on the story, give an opinion and identify if its too far fetched to make sense or is legit. what do you mean the 9/11 was attempted to be put under covers? if two huge towers get blown up (PLUS the small building nearby...) of course we will know. so how do you mean conspiracy that the 9/11 cover was blown?

wait what do you mean?? do you believe the 9/11 was what?? please state your argument ________
Last edited by (ugly)Bob on Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RedStone2
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Re: Wanna Conspiracy Debate?

Postby RedStone2 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:01 am

(ugly)Bob wrote: i don't believe in conspiracies, i believe in facts. i like to hear their take on the story, give an opinion and identify if its too far fetched to make sense or is legit. what do you mean the 9/11 was attempted to be put under covers? if two huge towers get blown up (PLUS the small building nearby...) of course we will know. so how do you mean conspiracy that the 9/11 cover was blown?

wait what do you mean?? do you believe the 9/11 was what?? please state your argument ________
I wasn't saying anything pro or con about who was behind 9/11. I was simply (at this point, anyway) refuting the false notion that "they could never keep a secret". Obviously, at least hundreds of people "kept a secret" for years on end leading up to 9/11...no matter WHO was behind it. A massive secret undertaking like 9/11 can be pulled off...because it WAS pulled off.

Anyway...if you're asking me about who was behind 9/11...watch this 15 minute video documentary from Architects and Engineers For 9/11 Truth. Only 15 measly minutes. Then tell me what you think. We could discuss from that standpoint:

http://newjerusalemchronicle.blogspot.com/2011/08/architects-engineers-solving-mystery-of.html
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Re: Wanna Conspiracy Debate?

Postby (ugly)Bob » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:16 am

dude, of course it was a big secret. They had to stay quiet in order to achieve the unfortunate day: September 11 2001. How is it a conspiracy that they hid their little secret until that day??
Last edited by (ugly)Bob on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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