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nojo
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Postby nojo » Thu May 04, 2006 6:43 pm

JDG128 wrote:That was genuine submissive behavior when he was silently cowering as he walked past the Dog Whisperer and curled up next to his mom.

And that shot of Cartman flat on his back with his belly getting scratched was really cute.

I'm a tad phobic about the phrase "behavioral conditioning", and I think there's a subtle but important difference between what the Dog Whisperer was doing and Pavlovian techniques. (I almost said "nuanced", but then I'd owe somebody five bucks...) But that's a very digressive quibble (okay, hand over the swear jar), and JDG's take on the episode is right on the money.

We're all critters with a veneer of civilization. If you want to understand human nature, start there.

(Footnote: Medusa's box? More like unrestrained, joyous Id, which is why everyone loves him so.)
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NotAFanBoy
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Postby NotAFanBoy » Thu May 04, 2006 7:01 pm

JDG128 wrote:He resisted at first. But Lianne and the Dog Whisperer eventually BROKE HIM. That was genuine submissive behavior when he was silently cowering as he walked past the Dog Whisperer and curled up next to his mom. He broke out of it up in the bathroom, but then he started brushing his teeth. "What the hell is wrong with me?" is a pretty strong indication he did not MEAN to be brushing his teeth as he was told.

He goes back to being the little bastard he is (or at least it's implied so at the end) because Lianne is so lonely and in need of a friend, that she'll give her son whatever he wants so that he'll be her friend, thereby ceasing the reinforcement necessary to make Cartman's conditioning permanent. Whacking a dog with a newspaper once isn't gonna be enough to stop it from making a mess in the house, and suddenly pulling a 180 and REWARDING it for making a mess is only going to reinforce the unwanted behavior. You know, the whole bit about Pavlov's dog.

Again, yes, he realized with his own conscience that killing her would be wrong. That's what the little parody of "Contact" was about, with the ghostly blue visages of Cartman's conscience and his old evil side driving him mad and making him collapse in the hallway. By morning, it's apparent that his conscience won out. Problem is, NAFB, you fail to realize that it is the Dog Whisperer's conditioning that gave rise to Cartman's conscience in the first place. All credit for the emergence of Cartman's sense of right and wrong goes to the Dog Whisperer.

If you fail to punish a kid for doing something bad, the kid's not going to develop a proper conscience. Consciences don't just appear; a kid needs to be taught that behaviors are right or wrong. The Dog Whisperer's regimen of behavioral conditioning has the effect of affirming what Cartman's conscience tells him to do. The views expressed by one's conscience need to be instilled at an early age before a person will give in to them.

They were treating him like a dog and he resisted until the end of the show.


He resisted at first. Around the end of act 2 though, when he begins brushing his teeth as he was told to, it is OBVIOUS that he's not strong enough to resist. At the end, Lianne wins the battle, when she finds Cartman eating a self-made breakfast, but Cartman wins the war when Lianne's loneliness gets the best of her and Cartman no longer has to resist.

In short, Cartman's normally a Medusa's box. The Dog Whisperer helped Lianne put the lid on the box for a short while, but Lianne was too weak to keep the lid on it herself for long enough to kill what was inside for good.

(NAFB, just a grammar note: "Conscious" is an adjective, meaning aware; having consciousness. "Conscience" is a noun, meaning that voice in you that tells you what's right or wrong, the word you mean to be using.)


No you f*cking moron, they didn't break him. He broke himself.

You're advocating treating people like dogs to get them to do what you want them to. You're saying that people can't think for themselves.

Cartman wanted to kill his mother and he tried to get his friends to do it for him. When they wouldn't he said he would "do it by himself". As he was about to stick his mother with a steak knife, HI S CONSCIENCE came out of him. Now, your conscience is yours. It can't be f*cked with. It can't be reasoned with. You certainly can't control someone elses conscience.

So HE decided TO HELP HIMSELF after he REALISED THAT what he was about to do was WRONG.

If he was BROKEN, he would have been more worried about the consequences of killing his mother. If he were worried about the consequences, he wouldn't have even thought about killing his mother. His conscience, his OWN thoughts stopped him from doing it.

Nobody told him not to kill his mother. He was fit to kill his mother which would end her control of him. Then he realized that it was wrong, and that he loved his mother and that his mother was only trying to help him.

But he GOES RIGHT BACK to being the same old cartman at the end. Did you not see the end? Cartman's mother wanted her son back. He came back. So how is he broken?

You don't have an explanation. All you're doing is pointing out patterns withOUT a meaning.
nojo
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Postby nojo » Thu May 04, 2006 7:10 pm

NotAFanBoy wrote:All you're doing is pointing out patterns withOUT a meaning.

I can't. I just can't. Much too easy.
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NotAFanBoy
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Postby NotAFanBoy » Thu May 04, 2006 7:13 pm

nojo wrote:
NotAFanBoy wrote:All you're doing is pointing out patterns withOUT a meaning.

I can't. I just can't. Much too easy.


So you'd rather see cartman get hurt and humiliated because of his flaws?

Hypocrite.
nojo
Posts: 600
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:51 am

Postby nojo » Thu May 04, 2006 7:22 pm

All alone, or in twos,
The ones who really love you
Walk up and down outside the wall.

Some hand in hand
And some gathered together in bands.
The bleeding hearts and artists
Make their stand.

And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger's wall.
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aristottlesdeathwish
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Postby aristottlesdeathwish » Thu May 04, 2006 7:25 pm

Whatever guys :roll: :cartmanevillaugh: l
"When you do something right, no one knows you have done anything at all"=Futurama
NotAFanBoy
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:39 am

Postby NotAFanBoy » Thu May 04, 2006 7:25 pm

that's right. You only want to feel superior to cartman. That's why you want to believe he was broken by a dog trainer. It makes it seem justfied to hate him.

But what you don't understand is that he is a CHILD. He's a spoiled little brat because his mother LETS him do whatever he wants. He IS a little sh*t but he's growing up.

That's it right there. She wants him to do whatever he wants, but she also wants what is best for him. Cartman knows this and that's why he chose to change. But he's still cartman, because he's still a child.

Can anyone explain the television fuzz displayed on cartman as his conscience fought itself in the hallway?
JDG128
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Postby JDG128 » Thu May 04, 2006 7:35 pm

NotAFanBoy wrote:You're advocating treating people like dogs to get them to do what you want them to. You're saying that people can't think for themselves.


I'm not advocating treating people like dogs. Cartman's not real, he's a cartoon character, with an exaggerated personality. He is a charicature of a spoiled, rotten child. An exaggerated spoiled brat calls for an exaggerated method of control.

Cartman is a CHILD. Much of the decisions a person makes are the result of their upbringing as a child. Much what you perceive as you thinking for yourself--what you choose to do, what you believe--is inextricably wound up in how you were raised, what values were instilled in you. I don't have to know you personally to know that, if you'd had a different childhood, you would NOT hold the crazy beliefs you hold now, Notty. People do not become who they are from the inside out. Personalities and beliefs do not--CANNOT--develop in a vacuum. No one can take 100% of the credit for who they are, what they do, and what they believe. If you perceive that there was a moment in your past where you had an enlightenment and became a different person, a moment when you came to believe what you now believe, that is only because who you were and where you were at that point in time combined to result in that moment. Whoever or whatever is responsible for who you were and where you were at the point in time can take at least partial credit for who you are now... not that they'd want to...

Cartman wanted to kill his mother and he tried to get his friends to do it for him. When they wouldn't he said he would "do it by himself". As he was about to stick his mother with a steak knife, HI S CONSCIENCE came out of him. Now, your conscience is yours. It can't be f*cked with. It can't be reasoned with. You certainly can't control someone elses conscience.

So HE decided TO HELP HIMSELF after he REALISED THAT what he was about to do was WRONG.


You CAN control someone's conscience at a young age. Parents hold the sole responsiblity for INSTILLING it in the first place! The concept of right and wrong don't birth themselves in a kid's head. Cartman's decision not to kill his mother WAS HIS OWN, yet the realization on which his decision was based--that he wasn't the center of the universe--was instilled in him by EXTERNAL FACTORS, the Dog Whisperer's regimen. You can claim ownership of your conscience, but only your parents or whoever else raised you can claim AUTHORSHIP of it.

If he was BROKEN, he would have been more worried about the consequences of killing his mother. If he were worried about the consequences, he wouldn't have even thought about killing his mother.


No. He NORMALLY would have been more concerned about the consequences of killing his mother. He's NORMALLY worried only about getting caught or getting in trouble. That his conscience is suddenly winning him over is what makes him broken, in that it is not the norm for him. In the case of Cartman, he is BROKEN when he listens to his conscience and is NORMAL when he's his old self, "broken" and "normal" in this case being used to describe what, for Cartman specifically, is abnormal and normal behavior, respectively.

But he GOES RIGHT BACK to being the same old cartman at the end. Did you not see the end? Cartman's mother wanted her son back. He came back. So how is he broken?


No, Lianne is lonely and wants her FRIEND back. Before she started laying down the law, Cartman was her only close friend; she let him do as he pleased, he reciprocated by spending time with her, keeping her company. At the end, Lianne unwittingly FIXES him, by allowing him to return to his old behavior.
Last edited by JDG128 on Thu May 04, 2006 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JDG128
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Postby JDG128 » Thu May 04, 2006 7:39 pm

[quote="NotAFanBoy":140e3]Can anyone explain the television fuzz displayed on cartman as his conscience fought itself in the hallway?[/quote:140e3]

From what discussion about the episode I've read, it was a parody of a scene from "Altered States," which I've never seen.
nojo
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Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:51 am

Postby nojo » Thu May 04, 2006 7:39 pm

NotAFanBoy wrote:Can anyone explain the television fuzz displayed on cartman as his conscience fought itself in the hallway?

(Sigh.) Let me guess: He's shaking off his jew-media television brainwashing.
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JDG128
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Postby JDG128 » Thu May 04, 2006 7:44 pm

nojo wrote:
NotAFanBoy wrote:Can anyone explain the television fuzz displayed on cartman as his conscience fought itself in the hallway?

(Sigh.) Let me guess: He's shaking off his jew-media television brainwashing.


Aww dammit, I thought NAFB was genuinely asking what the scene was a reference to. I didn't realize he'd already have a stupid idea of his own.
NotAFanBoy
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Postby NotAFanBoy » Thu May 04, 2006 7:44 pm

nojo wrote:
NotAFanBoy wrote:Can anyone explain the television fuzz displayed on cartman as his conscience fought itself in the hallway?

(Sigh.) Let me guess: He's shaking off his jew-media television brainwashing.


I was thinking of the nanny-tv programs shown at the beginning of the episode, including the dog-whisperer.
JDG128
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Postby JDG128 » Thu May 04, 2006 7:46 pm

NotAFanBoy wrote:
nojo wrote:
NotAFanBoy wrote:Can anyone explain the television fuzz displayed on cartman as his conscience fought itself in the hallway?

(Sigh.) Let me guess: He's shaking off his jew-media television brainwashing.


I was thinking of the nanny-tv programs shown at the beginning of the episode, including the dog-whisperer.


Well, no, it was a reference to "Altered States." Additionally, the final shot of Cartman's smiling face as he's hugging his mother is lifted straight outta "The Omen." And the blue ghostly good & evil Cartman faces, as I already mentioned, is a parody of "Contact."
Killahertz9
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Postby Killahertz9 » Thu May 04, 2006 7:49 pm

Image
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aristottlesdeathwish
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Postby aristottlesdeathwish » Thu May 04, 2006 7:52 pm

Why cant the show not have secret meanings of zionist control and just be funny? I mean theres just enough evidence for that conclusion as the conspiracy theory one.
"When you do something right, no one knows you have done anything at all"=Futurama

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