*914: Bloody Mary*

Discuss new episodes without ruining them for people in other time zones.

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Aym_Dand
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Postby Aym_Dand » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:49 pm

his episode was aired on December 7, which is the eve of the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.


I defy anyone to find me a date on the calendar that isn't associated with some sort of Catholic holiday.

"This episode aired on April 9th, which as everyone knows is the celebration of St. Gregory's Day -- the Patron Saint of Not Having a Sense of hHmor."
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I probably would have just put the f*cking lotion in the basket.

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ncro
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Postby ncro » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:31 pm

Bloody Mary -4/10 -It was horribly boring .

In my opinion one of the worst of this season.( This episode was worser than the losing edge, Marjorine , and Trapped in the closet.)
"No one ever knows what's next , But they always do it"-George Carlin
djadonis206
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Re: Bloody Mary

Postby djadonis206 » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:52 pm

dmeade wrote:I was actually very disappointed by the recent episode "Bloody Mary". I've been a longtime South Park fan but felt that the episode really missed the point of AA and was very irresponsible for conveying a message that is so misguided. I fully acknowledge that it is just a cartoon and Trey & Matt are free to express their opinions, but I feel that with an audience of millions they are irresponsibly conveying a potentially dangerous message. I've been in AA for over 8 years and have attended meetings in multiple states. I am not hardcore and in fact don't fully buy all of its tenets. However, I think this episode perpetuated several dangerous misconceptions.

First, it is true that AA considers alcoholism a disease, as does the American Medical Association and the World Health Organization(which technically classifies it as a "dependence"). Whether or not it is a disease like cancer is missing the point. The fact of the matter is that longterm alcoholic drinking results in liver disease, brain impairment and death. In general, by the time people end up in AA they usually have tried things like willpower and controlled drinking and still have wound up divorced, bankrupt or severely ill. This is what happened to the founders, who had tried everything else and failed.

Second, AA does not believe that everybody who has problems caused by their drinking is an alcoholic. It makes an explicit distinction between alcoholics, heavy drinkers and casual drinkers. If someone is able to stop drinking on their own then, according to AA, they are by definition not an alcoholic. Criticizing AA for believing this is like criticizing Christians for believing in Christ. People are free to leave and try drinking on their own, which AA actually advocates for those who are unsure. You are free to disagree with its fundamental tenets but they are what they are.

As far as being a cult is concerned, Trey & Matt are obviously drawing a parallel to things like Scientology, Kaballah or Mormonism. However, they are overlooking the fact that AA has no centralized power structure and no leader. It has a service office that organizes meetings and prints literature as opposed to these other organizations that have things like celebrity centers(Kaballah & Scientology) or demand significant portions of their followers incomes (Mormonism). AA only asks its members to donate $1 or $2 at meetings to cover expenses and take voluntary service commitments as a tool of recovery.

Finally, AA is not a religion. It is a spiritual program and makes no apologies for being so. However, it does explicitly say "God AS YOU UNDERSTAND HIM" in the 12 Steps. People are free to believe whatever they'd like as far as God is concerned, but a belief in a Higher Power is considered integral to the program. That said, there are agnostic and atheist meetings for those who are unsure, nobody is required to believe anything.

Now, AA has its zealots as does any organization. I have personally come across several AA cults and have avoided them. I think they're dangerous but calling AA a cult because of a couple fanatics is like indicting Islam because of Al Qaeda or Catholicism because of Opus Dei. AA is one of the few effective treatments for alcoholism and this type of misconception could cause people who need help to avoid it.


Also, unlike most cults, religions etc AA does not advertise or go out and recuit

You have to find it for yourself


I do have to comment on people saying it ruined their friends or families lives (AA) curious about those relationships prior to AA and having been in AA and left what those relationships are like now? Is it working out for you?


Curious

Still a funny episode
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Killahertz9
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Re: Bloody Mary

Postby Killahertz9 » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:08 pm

dmeade wrote:I was actually very disappointed by the recent episode "Bloody Mary". I've been a longtime South Park fan but felt that the episode really missed the point of AA and was very irresponsible for conveying a message that is so misguided. I fully acknowledge that it is just a cartoon and Trey & Matt are free to express their opinions, but I feel that with an audience of millions they are irresponsibly conveying a potentially dangerous message. I've been in AA for over 8 years and have attended meetings in multiple states. I am not hardcore and in fact don't fully buy all of its tenets. However, I think this episode perpetuated several dangerous misconceptions.

First, it is true that AA considers alcoholism a disease, as does the American Medical Association and the World Health Organization(which technically classifies it as a "dependence"). Whether or not it is a disease like cancer is missing the point. The fact of the matter is that longterm alcoholic drinking results in liver disease, brain impairment and death. In general, by the time people end up in AA they usually have tried things like willpower and controlled drinking and still have wound up divorced, bankrupt or severely ill. This is what happened to the founders, who had tried everything else and failed.

Second, AA does not believe that everybody who has problems caused by their drinking is an alcoholic. It makes an explicit distinction between alcoholics, heavy drinkers and casual drinkers. If someone is able to stop drinking on their own then, according to AA, they are by definition not an alcoholic. Criticizing AA for believing this is like criticizing Christians for believing in Christ. People are free to leave and try drinking on their own, which AA actually advocates for those who are unsure. You are free to disagree with its fundamental tenets but they are what they are.

As far as being a cult is concerned, Trey & Matt are obviously drawing a parallel to things like Scientology, Kaballah or Mormonism. However, they are overlooking the fact that AA has no centralized power structure and no leader. It has a service office that organizes meetings and prints literature as opposed to these other organizations that have things like celebrity centers(Kaballah & Scientology) or demand significant portions of their followers incomes (Mormonism). AA only asks its members to donate $1 or $2 at meetings to cover expenses and take voluntary service commitments as a tool of recovery.

Finally, AA is not a religion. It is a spiritual program and makes no apologies for being so. However, it does explicitly say "God AS YOU UNDERSTAND HIM" in the 12 Steps. People are free to believe whatever they'd like as far as God is concerned, but a belief in a Higher Power is considered integral to the program. That said, there are agnostic and atheist meetings for those who are unsure, nobody is required to believe anything.

Now, AA has its zealots as does any organization. I have personally come across several AA cults and have avoided them. I think they're dangerous but calling AA a cult because of a couple fanatics is like indicting Islam because of Al Qaeda or Catholicism because of Opus Dei. AA is one of the few effective treatments for alcoholism and this type of misconception could cause people who need help to avoid it.


What's great about this person here, is that they belongs to A.A. and is trying very hard to convince us (well, let's be honest, they're really trying to convince themself) that a popular comical cartoon "might" damage the way the viewers look at A.A. Not only is this person preaching censorship on the boards by saying that we can't make fun of something, but he's taking time out of his life to do so on a South Park BBS. I find it funny that just two weeks ago, we had a scientologist member doing the same exact thing. I know a lot about A.A. and yes, not every "group" is a cult but the truth of the matter is that many develop into one. I've witnessed it first hand. I've even witnessed somebody who had to attend a meeting because he got a D.U.I. (SPSBBS STOP f*cking CONVERTING MY TEXT!! IT'S D_U_I not D.you.I) and unless he was willing to admit that he had a problem, the "discussion leader" wouldn't sign his court card. Again, i'm not saying it happens all the time, but sh*t like that is why I can see why Matt and Trey would see the humor in it.

If you can't laugh at yourself, then you really can't laugh at anybody at all.
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iceiwynd
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Postby iceiwynd » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:14 pm

Killahertz9 wrote:
iceiwynd wrote:Wow. According to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Mar ... th_Park%29

This episode was aired on December 7, which is the eve of the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights condemned this episode for its treatment of the Virgin Mary. They demanded an apology to Roman Catholics and that the episode "be permanently retired and not be made available on DVD." In particular they also demanded that Joseph A. Califano, Jr., a member of Viacom's board of directors and a practicing Catholic, issue his own statement of condemnation.

Did anybody else know about this? That's really pathetic.


That's awesome, and I would have thought Scientologist would be making an even bigger stink about their episode.


I know - I would have thought so too!

And about all of the AA misconception, well, can't the way it's been performed be different in different locations? I highly doubt that they all act the exact same way and maybe the type of AA we got in Bloody Mary does actually exist. I honestly wouldn't be surprised. I mean I know AA could be a really great thing but there are some people who take things way too far.

And "might" damage - that's a might. But people should know by now to not treat South Park like it's 100% true, even on topical episodes, and that it's just expressing one view. The people who feel that every AA out there is exactly like the portrayal we got ehre are the ones that can't really think for themselves and let a satirical cartoon pretty much brainwash them.

I'll say it again for the hell of it. People always laugh at it until they're attacked. When people say "I've been a South Park fan for a long time but this episode did an incorrect portrayal of ______," and then they admit that they're a part of ______, the whole point is pretty much gone.
Igiveup
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Re: Bloody Mary

Postby Igiveup » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:54 pm

Killahertz9 wrote:
dmeade wrote:I was actually very disappointed by the recent episode "Bloody Mary". I've been a longtime South Park fan but felt that the episode really missed the point of AA and was very irresponsible for conveying a message that is so misguided. I fully acknowledge that it is just a cartoon and Trey & Matt are free to express their opinions, but I feel that with an audience of millions they are irresponsibly conveying a potentially dangerous message. I've been in AA for over 8 years and have attended meetings in multiple states. I am not hardcore and in fact don't fully buy all of its tenets. However, I think this episode perpetuated several dangerous misconceptions.

First, it is true that AA considers alcoholism a disease, as does the American Medical Association and the World Health Organization(which technically classifies it as a "dependence"). Whether or not it is a disease like cancer is missing the point. The fact of the matter is that longterm alcoholic drinking results in liver disease, brain impairment and death. In general, by the time people end up in AA they usually have tried things like willpower and controlled drinking and still have wound up divorced, bankrupt or severely ill. This is what happened to the founders, who had tried everything else and failed.

Second, AA does not believe that everybody who has problems caused by their drinking is an alcoholic. It makes an explicit distinction between alcoholics, heavy drinkers and casual drinkers. If someone is able to stop drinking on their own then, according to AA, they are by definition not an alcoholic. Criticizing AA for believing this is like criticizing Christians for believing in Christ. People are free to leave and try drinking on their own, which AA actually advocates for those who are unsure. You are free to disagree with its fundamental tenets but they are what they are.

As far as being a cult is concerned, Trey & Matt are obviously drawing a parallel to things like Scientology, Kaballah or Mormonism. However, they are overlooking the fact that AA has no centralized power structure and no leader. It has a service office that organizes meetings and prints literature as opposed to these other organizations that have things like celebrity centers(Kaballah & Scientology) or demand significant portions of their followers incomes (Mormonism). AA only asks its members to donate $1 or $2 at meetings to cover expenses and take voluntary service commitments as a tool of recovery.

Finally, AA is not a religion. It is a spiritual program and makes no apologies for being so. However, it does explicitly say "God AS YOU UNDERSTAND HIM" in the 12 Steps. People are free to believe whatever they'd like as far as God is concerned, but a belief in a Higher Power is considered integral to the program. That said, there are agnostic and atheist meetings for those who are unsure, nobody is required to believe anything.

Now, AA has its zealots as does any organization. I have personally come across several AA cults and have avoided them. I think they're dangerous but calling AA a cult because of a couple fanatics is like indicting Islam because of Al Qaeda or Catholicism because of Opus Dei. AA is one of the few effective treatments for alcoholism and this type of misconception could cause people who need help to avoid it.


What's great about this person here, is that they belongs to A.A. and is trying very hard to convince us (well, let's be honest, they're really trying to convince themself) that a popular comical cartoon "might" damage the way the viewers look at A.A. Not only is this person preaching censorship on the boards by saying that we can't make fun of something, but he's taking time out of his life to do so on a South Park BBS. I find it funny that just two weeks ago, we had a scientologist member doing the same exact thing. I know a lot about A.A. and yes, not every "group" is a cult but the truth of the matter is that many develop into one. I've witnessed it first hand. I've even witnessed somebody who had to attend a meeting because he got a D.you.I. (SPSBBS STOP f*cking CONVERTING MY TEXT!! IT'S D_U_I not D.you.I) and unless he was willing to admit that he had a problem, the "discussion leader" wouldn't sign his court card.

Well, he did have a problem, didn't he?
He had a demagogue discussion leader that wouldn't sign his card.


Again, i'm not saying it happens all the time, but sh*t like that is why I can see why Matt and Trey would see the humor in it.

If you can't laugh at yourself, then you really can't laugh at anybody at all.


If it's Funny, I laugh. Let's just leave it at that.

I may not agree with some of the things the topical posters say, but it does take a little courage to come to the official chat and voice their opionion, knowing full well they are verbally leaping into a sharktank.

This episode was not good, or funny, to me, and I'm not an advocate of either of the institutions they pulled out of the hat, this week.
Everyone is important, but no one is special.
hainted

Postby hainted » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:04 am

HA HA...KILLER EPISODE!!!!!!

As an ex-Catholic and a current Christian I laughed my head off!

And the AA 12-step program stuff was pure genius!!!!!

Stan: I was a leader of a cult(Scientology)...HAHAHAHA!!!

This ep was awesome!!! 8)
solofreesail
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The Bloody Mary episode was inspiring!

Postby solofreesail » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:10 am

I enjoyed this episode so much that I took action to find this site, subscribe, read all 11 pages of discussion before posting.

1. Regarding bleeding statues - enjoy this site
ehttp://www.mcn.org/1/Miracles/weeping.html

Disclaimers:
I am not Catholic, I am however a female, probably twice (or even thrice) the age of most of you posters, do have the piece of anatomy someone on here uses as an insult, and have had first hand experience of what the statue expresses from both sides. I also live with 3 teenagers who have enjoyed SP for much longer than I until I finally started paying attention.

Therefore...
If the statue was of the "virgin" Mary, and she was pregnant with Jesus, it would prove the immaculate conception, because (in case you didn't know) a pregnant woman would not bleed from her front because her eggs would have been fertilized, although she might indeed bleed elsewhere because of the position of the fetus pushing on internal organs...anyway the bleeding could be interpreted to prove that Mary had indeed conceived without human intervention because her hormones did not go through the human process in response to normal impregation...hahaha
So much for the biology lesion, guys...(pun intended)

2. Regarding AA and 12 step programs; I appreciate the posters who have first-hand experience inside the rooms giving some perspective, as I also have first hand experience in many 12 step programs besides AA. And this is why I found it so hilarious - it got so much wrong that it was hysterical - but apparently only if you're an insider, and of course you know you are on the road to recovery when you can take a joke.

So for you drinkers and addicts in denial (tee hee);
besides the 12 steps, there are 12 traditions which refer to how meetings and members communicate towards each other and the general public. The traditions are the foundation for meetings to guarantee anonymity, respect, trust and safety for people to discover their own truth, experience emotional growth, face their character flaws, forgive their past behavior and experience healthy supportive interactions. Usually posted at meetings is "Take what you want and leave the rest". "What is said in here, stays in here" Nobody is ever forced to admit anything, to share or to agree with anyone else - everyone has their own process and that is respected. There is no cross-talking or criticism expressed according to the traditions. There is no right way to do it, and the traditions have been updated since the original Big Book was printed over 30 years ago - so one need not acknowledge, accept or agree to a specific description of a god, or even a higher power. Also there is no promotion and no public relations or outreach - even an agreement to not speak to media about meetings or process and this is intentional. Meetings take place in churches of all denominations becauase rooms are provided for very cheap rent, they tend to be in accessible locations, and there is not a conflict of interest. Meetings are also held in all other public and private locations, including people's homes, offices, schools, libraries, even online.

Because its about the process of living and not about getting fixed. its neither an easy nor quick path to become the person you want to be and live a life beyond what you previously thought was possible. Someone's recovery from addiction may render them quite confident, serene and gracious, (quite the opposite of being victum to a restrictive organization) and that is attractive. That any addiction is a "disease" is not intended to be necessarily literal, but rather a talking point to emphasize the serious implications of succumbing to addictive behavior..

That Randy invests himself in his conception of a diseased person, using it as an excuse to give up living responsibly is so delightful in the profound contradiction to the intention and results achieved by adherents to 12 step programs.

I can't speak to the character of Randy's behavior in other episodes (is he always drinking?) - but it was great to see the expressions on the kids when he's driving with beer, and I really enjoy how we elders are consistantly exposed as hypocrites and sheep.

So all the stuff about AA being a cult and people being victums to their (addiction) disease is really brilliant comedic satire, and appropriate to end the season as SP takes a whack at things that people hold "religiously" sacred including this time of year - the Pope, Catholic miracles, and the 12 steps! I'm delighted that it wasn't a Christmas episode as this was more in the spirit of the intention of the season and what the guy died for anyway...(trust, respect, emotional growth, forgiveness, and facing the truth about one's own transgressions)
I did not wish to take the cabin passage, but rather to go before the mast and on the deck of the world, for there I could best see the moonlight. I do not wish to go below now. - Thoreau
Killahertz9
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Postby Killahertz9 » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:13 am

Solofreesail, Beautifully Stated.

Igiveup wrote:If it's Funny, I laugh. Let's just leave it at that.

I may not agree with some of the things the topical posters say, but it does take a little courage to come to the official chat and voice their opionion, knowing full well they are verbally leaping into a sharktank.

This episode was not good, or funny, to me, and I'm not an advocate of either of the institutions they pulled out of the hat, this week.


Courage? What, Internet courage? I see that all the time and unfortunately, it's very simular to liquid courage, but with a huge dork factor to consider.

I love how so many people consider South Park to be bigger than what is actually is....and that's just entertainment.
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Re: Bloody Mary

Postby Big-Will » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:23 am

Killahertz9 wrote:I've even witnessed somebody who had to attend a meeting because he got a D.you.I. (SPSBBS STOP f*cking CONVERTING MY TEXT!! IT'S D_U_I not D.you.I)

Several people here use the letter _u_ by itself for _you_, so nall installed a word filter to force the correct spelling. That filter needs fine-tuning.
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Igiveup
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Postby Igiveup » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:49 am

Killahertz9 wrote:Solofreesail, Beautifully Stated.

Igiveup wrote:If it's Funny, I laugh. Let's just leave it at that.

I may not agree with some of the things the topical posters say, but it does take a little courage to come to the official chat and voice their opionion, knowing full well they are verbally leaping into a sharktank.

This episode was not good, or funny, to me, and I'm not an advocate of either of the institutions they pulled out of the hat, this week.


Courage? What, Internet courage? I see that all the time and unfortunately, it's very simular to liquid courage, but with a huge dork factor to consider.

I love how so many people consider South Park to be bigger than what is actually is....and that's just entertainment.



I find you very courageous, Killahertz, internetwise.
Last edited by Igiveup on Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MarkusFarkus
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Postby MarkusFarkus » Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:06 am

I consider myself a casual drinker who doesn't need to drink, but only does it for fun with friends about once a week at the most. On occasion, yes, I drink too much.

I got a DUI three years ago out here and had to go to AA. I went to one meeting at a church, said nothing, had someone sign my form and left. Since it's Alcoholics ANONYMOUS I found that anybody can sign the paper. I was supposed to go six times. I had various friends sign the other five times and handed that form over with no problems. But let me remind you, DUI's are NO fun. Especially in this state. Three years later, after all the fines and community service, and I'm still paying for it, in insurance and probation and unforseen difficulties and red tape. I'll never drink and even LOOK at my car ever again.

I think the point was how Randy got busted for DUI when he usually wouldn't. He's never been portrayed as an alcoholic ("...this is AMERICA!" notwithstanding), so similarly to me, he got busted and found himself in AA. I could emphasize with him. I'm glad I didn't have to say anything at my meeting. I was afraid of the same reaction, since I would have introduced myself much in the same way that Randy did.

So yeah they took it to extremes and it was funny. Although it didn't seem quite as funny as the last bunch to me. I did like the ending with the Pope's reason for declaring the statue a non-miracle. But I didn't laugh nearly as hard as I did with Trapped or Willzyx. Maybe it will be better after a re-watch. Oh well. It's gonna be a long 3 months.
Killahertz9
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Postby Killahertz9 » Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:27 am

Igiveup wrote:
Killahertz9 wrote:Solofreesail, Beautifully Stated.

Igiveup wrote:If it's Funny, I laugh. Let's just leave it at that.

I may not agree with some of the things the topical posters say, but it does take a little courage to come to the official chat and voice their opionion, knowing full well they are verbally leaping into a sharktank.

This episode was not good, or funny, to me, and I'm not an advocate of either of the institutions they pulled out of the hat, this week.


Courage? What, Internet courage? I see that all the time and unfortunately, it's very simular to liquid courage, but with a huge dork factor to consider.

I love how so many people consider South Park to be bigger than what is actually is....and that's just entertainment.



I find you very couragious, Killahertz, internetwise.


hahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Thank you for proving my point. Class dismissed. :lol:


Quote: "Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. Goddamn it Otto, you are an alcoholic. Goddamn it Otto, you have Lupis... one of those two doesn't sound right." -Mitch Hedberg
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Postby Dex_Monkey » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:58 am

I almost never post here but I'm a huge south park fan. Ive seen every episode countless times, and own seasons 3-6 on DVD. However this last season has been terrible. I enjoyed a couple of episodes losing edge, death of eric cartman, Marjorine, and Follow that Egg, but even these were not that great. Every other episode this season sucked. And its not because I was sensitive to the material, or it affended me, or anything like that, its that they werent funny. the jokes are redundant, the plots stupid, and every episode focuses on only one character. Its unbearable, these new episodes remind me alot of the first season (which was pure sh*t) where the same jokes were done over and over, the show wasnt funny and they were only using shock value in every episode rather than an entertaining story.

Ive gotta say, unlike a lot of people i like the more recent seasons alot, seasons 6-8 were amazing and had some of the best episodes. But this season jsut didnt do it. Add to that the fact that the season takes almsot 2 years to come out (because of their break) and there only 14 episodes long, there isnt room to have an alright episode. especially when they come out on DVD and u have to pay the same price for south park that only has 14 episodes as u do for other similair shows that generally have 21.

I would really hate for south park to go the way of simpsons
tlp100
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Bloody Mary

Postby tlp100 » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:44 am

Anyone interested in checking out The Catholic League's Official Statement on the "Bloody Mary" episode can find it here:

http://www.catholicleague.org/05press_r ... h_park.htm

I was shocked to read that they want to go so far as to ban the episode from ever being released on DVD. That is censorship in its purest and lowest form. I hope that the good people who develop the South Park DVD sets will remember their First Amendment rights, and include the episode on the season's DVD set (whenever it comes out) for those of us who DO want to be able to see it. If you don't like it, you don't have to watch it, but it shouldn't be hidden away from those of us that do.

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