*1007: Tsst*

Discuss new episodes without ruining them for people in other time zones.

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RAppel
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Postby RAppel » Fri May 05, 2006 10:11 am

Phishpeaks wrote:You see it correctly.


Woohoo! I'm the king! 8)
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Phishpeaks
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Postby Phishpeaks » Fri May 05, 2006 3:32 pm

Bomb#20 wrote:
Magnus21 wrote:This was definately the best episode of the season. The first 15 minutes were just hilarious, but I was a little disappointed and confused by the ending. Did Cartmans personality actually change og was he just manipulating his mother again? Perhaps that should have been made more clear..


I think it was very obvious that He did not change. He asked for double and got it right away, hence He surely realised again that his mom went back to being the submissive one.


Sorry, but you're completely mistaken. What's obvious is that Eric did, in fact, change. However, for reasons already discussed, his mother essentially undermined the successful rehabilitation of her son due to her overriding co-dependent urges. We can now see her 'slutty' behavior as a symptom of her painfully low self-esteem. She is heart-breakingly lonely and desperate to feel 'loved' or 'needed.' Seeing her son beginning to act in a mature, responsible, and above all INDEPENDENT manner scares the sh*t out of her. Her fear of not being needed - of being alone - is so powerful, that she's willing to sacrifice her son's 'soul' (metaphorically, of course, hence The Omen allusion at episode's end) in order to avoid such a fate by resurrecting Eric's pre-existent selfish, needy (i.e. 'demonic') personality that had been [successfully] 'exorcised.' It is often said that, "The sins of the fathers are the sins of the sons." Well, in this case, it is the sin of the mother, who has selfishly re-established the comforting co-dependent relationship previously shared by her and her son....but at an unimaginably high cost. For she has, in a metaphorical sense, wilingly loosed the 'Anti-Christ' upon the world as a result of her own self-interest. For it seems clear that Eric's fate is now officially sealed.

Eric is the 'Anti-Christ' (in a literalized metaphorical sense). But what this episode makes tragically and unmistakably clear is that this is essentially due to his being deprived of the disciplinary role-model he so desperately needs at a crucially formative age in favor of the parental 'buddy' his mother has provided him with instead.

I'd take comfort in knowing that this phenomenon was limited to crudely-animated television families and didn't exist (in a less exaggerated capacity, naturally) in the real world. Sadly, there is no such comfort to take.

*

Sorry for getting all deep, y'all...but beneath the "laugh-riot" surface...Matt and Trey were offering a subtle but pointed social commentary - intentionally deceptive in it's emotional complexity so as not to intrude upon the surface "fun" - about real-world family relationships.
randyhart
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Postby randyhart » Fri May 05, 2006 3:45 pm

I am glad he will stay so evil the good Cartman is too much like the other kids and great Star Wars quote put into the mix
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chefmeisterr
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Postby chefmeisterr » Fri May 05, 2006 4:09 pm

This episode ruled !! I think it was the best one in season 9 and 10. I laughed my ass off
nojo
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Postby nojo » Fri May 05, 2006 4:12 pm

Phishpeaks wrote:Eric is the 'Anti-Christ' (in a [you]literalized[/you] metaphorical sense). But what this episode makes tragically and unmistakably clear is that this is essentially due to his being deprived of the disciplinary role-model he so desperately needs at a crucially formative age in favor of the parental 'buddy' his mother has provided him with instead.

I'll echo with a concurring opinion: If Cartman did not change, it's a far less interesting episode -- because the Dog Whisperer would not have been successful.

The joke (and truth) of the episode is that he succeeds where the nannies' methods fail. The poignancy of the episode is that it's Cartman's mother's own weakness that undercuts the Dog Whisperer's success. She needs a friend more than she needs a son.

If, on the other hand, Cartman was gaming the Dog Whisperer like he gamed the nannies, we lose all the humor and insight. Cartman may be the anti-Christ, but he's still an eight-year-old boy. That's his weakness.
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Uncle Alex
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Postby Uncle Alex » Fri May 05, 2006 5:23 pm

By the way.
I may sound silly but who the hell is Nanny Skexis? Aged Mutant Ninja Turtle?
:D
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NotAFanBoy
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Postby NotAFanBoy » Fri May 05, 2006 6:14 pm

nojo wrote:
Phishpeaks wrote:Eric is the 'Anti-Christ' (in a [you]literalized[/you] metaphorical sense). But what this episode makes tragically and unmistakably clear is that this is essentially due to his being deprived of the disciplinary role-model he so desperately needs at a crucially formative age in favor of the parental 'buddy' his mother has provided him with instead.

I'll echo with a concurring opinion: If Cartman did not change, it's a far less interesting episode -- because the Dog Whisperer would not have been successful.

The joke (and truth) of the episode is that he succeeds where the nannies' methods fail. The poignancy of the episode is that it's Cartman's mother's own weakness that undercuts the Dog Whisperer's success. She needs a friend more than she needs a son.

If, on the other hand, Cartman was gaming the Dog Whisperer like he gamed the nannies, we lose all the humor and insight. Cartman may be the anti-Christ, but he's still an eight-year-old boy. That's his weakness.


You don't get it. How can not see that cartman refused to break? He tried to kill his mother. He was going to end her life.

Say you're a drill instructor in the army and you have a "private pile" problem recruit. He's a fat, lazy SOB and gets the rest of his company in trouble all the time. So you beat the sh*t out of him a until he breaks under the pressure. Now, in the movie Full Metal Jacket, private pile kills his drill instructor BUT he kills himself afterwards. He wanted to die because he hated himself. The drill instructor broke him into reality, and private pile realized what a piece of sh*t he was. So he killed himself.

Cartman is too independent and sure of himself to kill himself. He tried to kill his mother to end her control of him. He couldn't be broken. He was resisting.

We have seen glimpses of cartman's "good conscience" in other episodes. So his reason for not killing his mother has nothing to do with being "broken". He CHOSE HIMSELF NOT to kill her.

Cartman realized what he was doing and because he's a natural-born leader, he couldn't bring himsefl to kill his mother just because she wasn't, at the time, doing whatever he asked.
He was too proud.

His mother is a whore. She is always seen being abused by her lovers. She's in a german scat-porn getting sh*t on, she's getting screwed by a black guy in the "death of cartman" episode, she screws a bunch of guys in the "cartman's mom still/is a dirty slut" episodes, including bill clinton, and now she has found another abuser in the "dog whisperer". All the talking about "dominance" and being in control of someone else as if that someone else was a dog turned her on.

But when the dog whisperer said he wasn't interested in her Ms. Cartman turned to Cartman for the abuse.

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? What do you not understand nojo? Cartman was not "broken". If he were broken he would not have attempted to kill his mother. It was just the fact that his mother was for a time being neglegent to cartman's abuse, that he realized how dependent he became on bossing her around. But HE chose to go into her room with a knife to kill her, and HE chose to stop himself from going all the way.

Really nojo, I can't fathom why you can't understand this.
Levani
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Postby Levani » Fri May 05, 2006 6:20 pm

good episode,but ending was not that good
nojo
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Postby nojo » Fri May 05, 2006 6:21 pm

[quote="NotAFanBoy":858e4]Really nojo, I can't fathom why you can't understand this.[/quote:858e4]
Tsst!

Damn. Worked last time.
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Levani
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Postby Levani » Fri May 05, 2006 6:30 pm

its disapointing that cartman didn't teach lesson to that "dog whisperer"
MCkormick2
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Postby MCkormick2 » Fri May 05, 2006 6:32 pm

This is going to be a lot like the "how to eat with your butt" discussion. I believe Cartman changed because we see him behaving well before his mother finds him. He could be just faking it, but I find hard to believe that normal Cartman would give up a unhealthy breakfast for grapefruit and math. I mean, if he didn't cahnge, he could very well spend the night eating crap and pretend to eat the grapefruit when his mother woke up. But he didn't.

Of course, Cartman did fake a lot of times. He didn't even tell anyone aboot his idea to make Scott Tennorman eat his parents, and made people believe his hand was Hennifer Lopez, so, it could be, like those, just an ultra-complex plot.

I wouldn't blame Cartman's mother so much. It's difficult to know how the human mind works, but treating a kid like that could also turn him into a loving, yet dependent, son.

Go ahead, bomb me away.
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nojo
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Postby nojo » Fri May 05, 2006 6:46 pm

MCkormick2 wrote:Of course, Cartman did fake a lot of times.

And he tries a fake here too, pretending to be polite while the grownups chow on KFC.

Only this time it doesn't work. The Dog Whisperer not only sees right through it, but casually dismisses it. After all these years, Cartman has met his match.

And Cartman's mom? Well, some of us aren't blaming her as such. If she were simply a parody of a permissive parent, the episode wouldn't be nearly as effective. She is lonely, and Cartman is the only man in her life. It's the humanity of it all that makes it sad.

Oh, and very, very funny. Mustn't lose sight of that.
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Phishpeaks
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Postby Phishpeaks » Fri May 05, 2006 6:57 pm

NotAFanBoy wrote:
nojo wrote:
Phishpeaks wrote:Eric is the 'Anti-Christ' (in a [you]literalized[/you] metaphorical sense). But what this episode makes tragically and unmistakably clear is that this is essentially due to his being deprived of the disciplinary role-model he so desperately needs at a crucially formative age in favor of the parental 'buddy' his mother has provided him with instead.

I'll echo with a concurring opinion: If Cartman did not change, it's a far less interesting episode -- because the Dog Whisperer would not have been successful.

The joke (and truth) of the episode is that he succeeds where the nannies' methods fail. The poignancy of the episode is that it's Cartman's mother's own weakness that undercuts the Dog Whisperer's success. She needs a friend more than she needs a son.

If, on the other hand, Cartman was gaming the Dog Whisperer like he gamed the nannies, we lose all the humor and insight. Cartman may be the anti-Christ, but he's still an eight-year-old boy. That's his weakness.


You don't get it. How can not see that cartman refused to break? He tried to kill his mother. He was going to end her life.

Say you're a drill instructor in the army and you have a "private pile" problem recruit. He's a fat, lazy SOB and gets the rest of his company in trouble all the time. So you beat the sh*t out of him a until he breaks under the pressure. Now, in the movie Full Metal Jacket, private pile kills his drill instructor BUT he kills himself afterwards. He wanted to die because he hated himself. The drill instructor broke him into reality, and private pile realized what a piece of sh*t he was. So he killed himself.

Cartman is too independent and sure of himself to kill himself. He tried to kill his mother to end her control of him. He couldn't be broken. He was resisting.

We have seen glimpses of cartman's "good conscience" in other episodes. So his reason for not killing his mother has nothing to do with being "broken". He CHOSE HIMSELF NOT to kill her.

Cartman realized what he was doing and because he's a natural-born leader, he couldn't bring himsefl to kill his mother just because she wasn't, at the time, doing whatever he asked.
He was too proud.

His mother is a whore. She is always seen being abused by her lovers. She's in a german scat-porn getting sh*t on, she's getting screwed by a black guy in the "death of cartman" episode, she screws a bunch of guys in the "cartman's mom still/is a dirty slut" episodes, including bill clinton, and now she has found another abuser in the "dog whisperer". All the talking about "dominance" and being in control of someone else as if that someone else was a dog turned her on.

But when the dog whisperer said he wasn't interested in her Ms. Cartman turned to Cartman for the abuse.

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? What do you not understand nojo? Cartman was not "broken". If he were broken he would not have attempted to kill his mother. It was just the fact that his mother was for a time being neglegent to cartman's abuse, that he realized how dependent he became on bossing her around. But HE chose to go into her room with a knife to kill her, and HE chose to stop himself from going all the way.

Really nojo, I can't fathom why you can't understand this.


It seems like you have an emotional investment in Eric's character and are taking personal affront to the notion that he was in fact 'broken.' I'm guessing you relate to his 'natural born leader' qualities? :lol: In any event, most of what you're saying is correct, but the context in which your placing it is slightly skewed due to what I think is a semantic misunderstanding. The so-called 'breaking' process that was begun by the Dog Whisperer (and reinforced by his mother) was completed by Eric himself. (The cinematic allusions -Contact, Altered States, The Omen - were not arbitrary inserted merely because looking cool - which they did. If you're aware of the context in which the original scenes play out, you'll gleen some insight into just how profound their usage was). Eric, of course, was ultimately responsible for completing the transformation he underwent (free-will and all). But that transformation he underwent was real...and (hypothetically speaking) would have been permanent had his mother's emotional needs not overridden her parental obligations.

Like it or not, the boys (Matt & Trey) packed a disarmingly powerful social commentary into this episode.
Phishpeaks
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Postby Phishpeaks » Fri May 05, 2006 7:15 pm

MCkormick2 wrote:I wouldn't blame Cartman's mother so much. It's difficult to know how the human mind works, but treating a kid like that could also turn him into a loving, yet dependent, son.


Perhaps, but I think that the point that Trey & Matt were trying to make is that the very real brats on those 'reality' Nanny shows - and the multitude of real-world analogs they correspond to - are the result of poor parenting, just like Eric is the result of poor parenting.
handlyhamster
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Postby handlyhamster » Fri May 05, 2006 7:58 pm

MCkormick2 wrote:I wouldn't blame Cartman's mother so much. It's difficult to know how the human mind works, but treating a kid like that could also turn him into a loving, yet dependent, son.

Go ahead, bomb me away.


I've read a lot of these discussions and all I can say is WOW.

Ok, like, you guys realize that Eric Cartman and his Mom don't really exist, right? Like, there is no debate whether or not Eric did or did not change BECAUSE HE IS FICTIONAL!!!!!!!

Wow. The dog whisperer on the other hand is real and is being sued according to todays news.

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