*1012: Go God Go*

Discuss new episodes without ruining them for people in other time zones.

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tdewey
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Postby tdewey » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:08 pm

Kyle the Skeptic wrote:I've been over this already. This is a false-cause fallacy, because communism is not atheism.


Religion needs to be reformed, not abolished. It's far more realistic to encourage people to change than to tell them to give up their beliefs altogether.


Sorry, I don't buy either of this points.

1. Every communist regieme has been, and is, radically atheist. Even today the Chinese, Korean and Cuban communists brutally abuse their religous folk. Now I am sure there are non-commnist atheists who may be nice people -- but arguing that communists aren't "really" atheists is bullsh*t. They're just a different type of atheist.

2. Exactly who chooses what beliefs need to be "changed." You're in la-la land. The most succesful religons are conservative (i.e. they don't change with the time). Compare the presbyterian church to evangelical chuches in the United States -- the much more conservative evagelical churches are growing, the liberal presbyterian church is dying.

* * * * *

As an aside - I can't see why anyone thought this episode was boring. For me it just moved -- I was surprised when it was over.
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Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:09 pm

1. Every communist regieme has been, and is, radically atheist. Even today the Chinese, Korean and Cuban communists brutally abuse their religous folk. Now I am sure there are non-commnist atheists who may be nice people -- but arguing that communists aren't "really" atheists is bullsh*t. They're just a different type of atheist.

You deliberately misinterpreted what I said. Atheism was incidental to these communist regimes. There is no proof whatsoever that it had any causal relationship to the abuses you are trying to blame it for. It's not a political doctrine or a worldview, nor is it a social or economic system the way communism is. Also your claim that every communist regime has been radically atheist is patently false.
http://atheistalliance.org/library/nels ... munism.php
2. Exactly who chooses what beliefs need to be "changed." You're in la-la land. The most succesful religons are conservative (i.e. they don't change with the time). Compare the presbyterian church to evangelical chuches in the United States -- the much more conservative evagelical churches are growing, the liberal presbyterian church is dying.

That turns out to be a myth. Baptists, one of the more conservative groups, showed no growth over the 1990s, while others like the Jehovah's Witnesses saw a decline among people claiming affiliation. Overall, as percentages go, people are shifting away from Christianity and other organized religions.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

Besides, I was trying to make a different point entirely. There was once a time when it was legal to execute anyone who did not profess belief in God. There was once a time when slavery was legal and backed by scripture. There was once a time when "Manifest Destiny" was considered justifiable. Clearly people have moved past such idiotic beliefs.
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Postby Rebecca_Cutswald » Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:56 pm

*note here*
In some parts of communist china, missionary activity is a crime. Atheists >do< force their will on others from time to time. As much as I hate missionaries... the point still stands.

Ofcourse Atheists don't have a doctrine, so they can always say "That isn't part of my atheist ideal." but it doesn't matter, the banning of religious activities, when applied to all religions equally, can be nothing but an atheist rule.
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Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:01 pm

Or part of the agenda of any group wishing for their religion to be practiced exclusively. Just as Islamic dictatorships typically ban the practice of all other religions, communist regimes that push communism as a religion, the way the Soviet Union did under Stalin, tend to crack down hard on any competition.
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Postby Rebecca_Cutswald » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:25 pm

Kyle the Skeptic wrote:Or part of the agenda of any group wishing for their religion to be practiced exclusively. .


Well yes.. exactly. Which is why Atheism is no different. :P

Edit: Saying that one form of Atheism doesn't represent all forms is true, but then the same can be said of religious groups as well can't it?

Communism is treated like a religion.. an atheist religion.

Atheism doesn't need to be eradicated, only changed so that atheists don't force their beliefs on others.
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Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:30 pm

Rebecca_Cutswald wrote:Edit: Saying that one form of Atheism doesn't represent all forms is true, but then the same can be said of religious groups as well can't it?

Yes, that's a given.
Communism is treated like a religion.. an atheist religion.

Atheism isn't a religion. Atheism is a religion in the same way that bald is a hair color. You're mangling the definition by equating the two. Atheism has no equivalent of a holy book that instructs people to live a certain way; communism on the other hand does. Atheism is not a political or economic system; communism on the other hand is. To use the classic example, both Ayn Rand the supercapitalist and Karl Marx the extreme socialist were atheists, yet they had diametrically opposite worldviews.

Besides, did you miss the part about the doctrine of communism being practiced as a religion? In the Soviet Union for example, the state of atheism was only instituted at the last minute in an effort to keep any religions from competing with communism, and this happened shortly before it collapsed.

By your logic, we should consider atheism to be a subsect of Christianity, because the disbelief in gods is contingent on the presence of people who believe in gods in the first place.
Last edited by Kyle the Skeptic on Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rebecca_Cutswald » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:38 pm

Kyle the Skeptic wrote:Atheism isn't a religion. Atheism is a religion in the same way that bald is a hair color.

So we don't chose to be atheist like we don't chose our hair color. Nice equation... O.o oh wait...

Besides, did you miss the part about the doctrine of communism being practiced as a religion?.

Make up your mind! Communism is a practiced as a religion.. an atheistic religion. Does communism have a god? NO. Communism is to Atheists what zen bhudism is to any other form of Bhudism- a sect. If you can equate a philosophy to hair color... I can equate it to a religion.
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Rebecca_Cutswald
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Postby Rebecca_Cutswald » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:42 pm

Kyle the Skeptic wrote:
Rebecca_Cutswald wrote:Edit: Saying that one form of Atheism doesn't represent all forms is true, but then the same can be said of religious groups as well can't it?

Yes, that's a given.
Communism is treated like a religion.. an atheist religion.

Atheism isn't a religion.


I'm not saying it's a religion. Pay attention *nocks your head* I am saying that communism, treated like a religion is an atheistic religion... that is to say it is a religion with the characteristic of being atheist.
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Postby Big-Will » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:42 pm

It's not a religion now, but MnT are saying that if all religion fades away and atheism is the only thing left, it will become a religion and divide into denominations just like Christianity does today. I agree. Mankind seems to be in need of religion in one form or another: if all the ones we have today are gone, you'll have a vacuum that needs to be filled, and the only thing to fill it is atheism, or at least science. Nature abhors a vacuum. To paraphrase Dawkins, atheism as a religion is bound to happen in the absence of any other religion.
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Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:48 pm

I had more to add to my above post.
Rebecca_Cutswald wrote:So we don't chose to be atheist like we don't chose our hair color. Nice equation... O.o oh wait...

Atheism implies a complete lack of religious belief, just as baldness implies no hair. If you don't have religious belief in the first place, then you cannot be said to have a religion.
Make up your mind! Communism is a practiced as a religion.. an atheistic religion. Does communism have a god? NO. Communism is to Atheists what zen bhudism is to any other form of Bhudism- a sect. If you can equate a philosophy to hair color... I can equate it to a religion.

You're still using contradictory terms. Something that is not a religion in the first place cannot have sects. You're just repeating the same nonsense ad nauseum.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... intro.html

The point of this digression is that the answer to the question "Isn't atheism a religious belief?" depends crucially upon what is meant by "religious." "Religion" is generally characterized by belief in a superhuman controlling power -- especially in some sort of God -- and by faith and worship.

(It's worth pointing out in passing that some varieties of Buddhism are not "religion" according to such a definition.)

Atheism is certainly not a belief in any sort of superhuman power, nor is it categorized by worship in any meaningful sense. Widening the definition of "religious" to encompass atheism tends to result in many other aspects of human behavior suddenly becoming classed as "religious" as well -- such as science, politics, and watching TV.

Rebecca_Cutswald wrote:I'm not saying it's a religion. Pay attention *nocks your head* I am saying that communism, treated like a religion is an atheistic religion... that is to say it is a religion with the characteristic of being atheist.

That still makes no sense at all.
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Postby Rebecca_Cutswald » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:52 pm

Kyle the Skeptic wrote:
The point of this digression is that the answer to the question "Isn't atheism a religious belief?" depends crucially upon what is meant by "religious." "Religion" is generally characterized by belief in a superhuman controlling power -- especially in some sort of God -- and by faith and worship.

(It's worth pointing out in passing that some varieties of Buddhism are not "religion" according to such a definition.)

Atheism is certainly not a belief in any sort of superhuman power, nor is it categorized by worship in any meaningful sense. Widening the definition of "religious" to encompass atheism tends to result in many other aspects of human behavior suddenly becoming classed as "religious" as well -- such as science, politics, and watching TV.


Yes, but by that deffinition- neither is communism. But both can- and have been- treated like a religion- As you yourself have said.

Pwned... Kyle The Skeptic is now my bitch.

Sweety.. if you can't understand how communism has the characteristic of being athiestic- I can't help you there.
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Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:10 am

My point is that they're two entirely separate things, and you were incorrect to claim that communism and atheism are the same. If you're going to exclude communism from the category of religion, then on the flip side you have no basis to conclude that atheism has any causal relationship to the acts committed by communist regimes. The only thing characterizing atheism is the disbelief in gods, nothing else.

Edit: In the Soviet Union, communism was the cause, and atheism was more of an incidental after effect, not the other way around. If you'll notice, I was addressing someone who tried to blame atheism for the acts of communism. But this is a cart-horse mixup.

Besides, as I said earlier, atheism has no equivalent of a holy book that instructs people to live a certain way; communism on the other hand does. Atheism requires no allegiance to a higher authority; communism does. Atheism is not a worldview or a comprehensive philosophy; communism on the other hand is.
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Postby Rebecca_Cutswald » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:31 am

Kyle the Skeptic wrote:My point is that they're two entirely separate things, and you were incorrect to claim that communism and atheism are the same.

I never made that claim. Religion, is not a part of communism. All religion is held in contempt by communist principle. No belief in a higher being. What do you call that if not atheism? As I said, atheism is a part of, or a characteristic, of communism. That does not mean it is the same anymore than my liver is the same as... well myself. It's only a part of me.

Edit: In the Soviet Union, communism was the cause, and atheism was more of an incidental after effect, not the other way around. If you'll notice, I was addressing someone who tried to blame atheism for the acts of communism. But this is a cart-horse mixup.


I'm not interested in that.

Besides, as I said earlier, atheism has no equivalent of a holy book that instructs people to live a certain way; communism on the other hand does.

Yes... but so do people who read self-help books, America its self has a constitution that tells us how to live- though they might be atheist. Not all Christians read the Bible, and not all religions have a text. Don’t go changing the definition of religion.

Atheism requires no allegiance to a higher authority; communism does.

So does democracy, monarchy, erm... tribes also... any civilization... Unless that "higher authority" is super-natural, it's not religion. Are Atheists anarchists now? Cool..

Atheism is not a worldview or a comprehensive philosophy; communism on the other hand is.

ORLY? "God and the super natural does not exist"- this is not a world view?
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Postby Kyle the Skeptic » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:43 am

Rebecca_Cutswald wrote:That does not mean it is the same anymore than my liver is the same as... well myself. It's only a part of me.

That I have no problem with. My objection was largely due to the fact that you sounded as though you were equating the two, shortly after someone else did. Besides, not everyone who is irreligious is an atheist.

Edit: Here's a source that clarifies what I meant by dogmatic communism being practiced as a religion.
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/hitlerstalin.html
ORLY? "God and the super natural does not exist"- this is not a world view?

No, it's not. It exists only as an opinion on religion, and is defined as a stance on a belief. Any worldview that gets tacked on, for example capitalism or communism, is incidental. There are so many different types that the term atheist could apply to that it's impossible to attach any one worldview to the label.
Last edited by Kyle the Skeptic on Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Hippiecatcher » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:44 am

You guys take all the fun out of South Park :P

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