*2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

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nall
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby nall » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:09 pm

Cartman seemed kinda unhappy there at the end - he wipes his face after Heidi kisses him there.
Big-Will wrote:They'll last. :) Until he screws up, then either PC Principal or Mr. Turner (have you seen the muscles on him?) will beat the crap out of him.
He was quite muscley!
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby nwt000 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:14 pm

nall wrote:Cartman seemed kinda unhappy there at the end - he wipes his face after Heidi kisses him there.
Big-Will wrote:They'll last. :) Until he screws up, then either PC Principal or Mr. Turner (have you seen the muscles on him?) will beat the crap out of him.
He was quite muscley!
At the same time though, I think that Cartman may try to make it work again for a while. Even if things don't pan out for him and Heidi romantically, I still hope and think that they'll at least still be friends.
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby kfgg » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:19 pm

He did say he didn't want to be miserable. And I think he does like Heidi. He did til Butters told him what he did. Maybe if he figures out in the future that it was not all 100% true what he was told, it will be just fine.
Stan and Kyle :)
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby VACOOLA » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:18 am

nall wrote:
VACOOLA wrote:In the meantime they can touch each other's dicks and/or gander at each other's assholes all they want, just as PC Principal suggested.
A weird thing to wish for 10 year olds. I'll assume that's a joke ;).
A slightly sarcastic one, yes. And if you look closer, you'll probably find out that it wasn't exactly part of my wish. Everything about PC Principal, including his so-called guidelines, is either weird or plain creepy. Maybe touching dicks and gandering at assholes is what PC bros do when they are not crushing pussy or pumping iron? I wouldn't be surprised. At least back at his office :craig: & :tweek: didn't look very enthused by the idea. But who knows what they do together when nobody's watching. Would it be weird for them to "experiment" with each other? IDK, you tell me. I'm not the one who thinks they are gay, 'member? Was it weird for Jimmy to fuck that ugly hooker? Probably. Was it weird for Ike to bang his teacher with that microscopic, almost nonexistent pecker of his?? Most certainly, although hardly possible. It's much more natural for 10 year olds to experiment with other boys and girls their age than to have sex with older women. So let's not be hypocritical here. Granted, this subject is a big taboo (boo-boo!), but definitely not in South Park.

If :craig: & :tweek: really needed my advice, I'd tell them to try and find a way to collect royalties from the Asian girls selling yaoi pictures of them. Why let someone else have all those dead presidents? The girls must share.
nall wrote:On a related topic, what was up with Cartman and Heidi at the very end there? Opinions? ;)
Cartman and Heidi remind me of another romantic couple - Richard Dawkins and Mrs. Garrison: Heidi=Dawkins, Cartman=You-Know-Who, she is the smart one, he is the passionate one, both are hell-bent on changing the world. Heidi is so obsessed with her pseudo-scientific emoji analysis that she is just too blind to see what a monster she's been dating. Of course, today's boring, watered-down Cartman is nowhere near his old devilish self. Once Fatass goes back to this normal self that some of us love to hate, once both of them are online again there appears a wide array of possibilities. I think it's a safe bet to say the status-quo is going to change drastically. Personally, I'd like to see what a cartmanized version of Heidi would look/sound like. Would she gain some weight? Would she become a foul-mouthed, anti-Semitic deranged little cunt? But most importantly, would she be able to make him do her bidding? Two Cartmans for the price of one, how about that?
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby nall » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:14 am

VACOOLA wrote:At least back at his office :craig: & :tweek: didn't look very enthused by the idea. But who knows what they do together when nobody's watching. Would it be weird for them to "experiment" with each other?
That whole situation would be extremely uncomfortable, regardless of actual orientation or romantic interest.
Not gay? Uncomfortable.
In denial? Very uncomfortable.
Embarrassed/in the closet? Uncomfortable.
Gay but not interested in the other person? Uncomfortable.
Actually interested in the other person? Still uncomfortable.

In any case, if any of you want to have a discussion about which characters are gay (or not), I'm going to split that into a separate thread. Cartman/Heidi and such discussion is fine here, but this thread should really be about the season finale.
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby nwt000 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:01 pm

Heidi doesn't need to gain weight to become the female equivalent of Cartman, nor should she do so because she looks fine the way she is and it would be pretty stupid if she became fat and out of shape just for being evil. Not all villains need to look repulsive you know. Besides, those "Beauty" and "Beast" shirts that they wear would basically lose their purpose.
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby VACOOLA » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:54 am

nall wrote:
VACOOLA wrote:At least back at his office :craig: & :tweek: didn't look very enthused by the idea. But who knows what they do together when nobody's watching. Would it be weird for them to "experiment" with each other?
That whole situation would be extremely uncomfortable, regardless of actual orientation or romantic interest.
Not gay? Uncomfortable.
In denial? Very uncomfortable.
Embarrassed/in the closet? Uncomfortable.
Gay but not interested in the other person? Uncomfortable.
Actually interested in the other person? Still uncomfortable.
Uncomfortable, really? :? Are you sure we are talking about the same group of South Park Elementary boy students who once decided to measure their penis sizes and put the results on the school bulletin board for everyone to see? The same ones who marched proudly with their dicks out just a while back? None of them shameless bastards felt in the least uncomfortable about participating in said public actions. No disrespect, nall, but certain someone should probably take off his rose-colored glasses.
nall wrote:In any case, if any of you want to have a discussion about which characters are gay (or not), I'm going to split that into a separate thread.
Nah, I don't think it would be necessary. This heated debate has managed to go surprisingly far, considering it was going nowhere from the very beginning. I guess we'd better leave it at that.
nwt000 wrote:Heidi doesn't need to gain weight to become the female equivalent of Cartman, nor should she do so because she looks fine the way she is and it would be pretty stupid if she became fat and out of shape just for being evil. Not all villains need to look repulsive you know. Besides, those "Beauty" and "Beast" shirts that they wear would basically lose their purpose.
She doesn't need to gain weight, but she might as well if she keeps dating Cartman. Moreover, if she gains enough weight, figuratively speaking, to become the dominant one, there is a good chance Fatass will start losing weight while orbiting her (I highly doubt that, but who the hell knows). The closest analogy would be Dr. Evil's son Scott who began losing his hair the moment he decided to follow in his nutty bald dad's footsteps. So becoming fugly is one of many possible ways for Heidi to outcartman Cartman. Not to mention that as a romantic villain couple they might also need a bunch of sharks with freakin' laser beams attached to their heads......

But this is pure speculation, of course. The point is that if they get to stay together, something will have to change inevitably. However, not necessarily the way either of them looks.
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby kfgg » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:42 am

I don't think Heidi will gain weight because of Eric. Butters did not (Minus that one time in Season 6) and he always just does everything Eric tells him to do.

Her dad would probably send her to the gym if she did. I'm surprised he lets her hang out with him. He was very protective in Marjorine.

On a semi-related note, wonder if Trey still eats excessive amounts of McDonalds? Was just watching 6 Days To Air on the DVD, he was chowing down on Chicken Nuggets, Large Fries, Big Mac, more. It's addictive. Thinking about the way Eric was going on about dipping the fries in Sweet & Sour sauce and Heidi liked it makes me think it's something that actually happens.
Stan and Kyle :)
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby nall » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:12 pm

VACOOLA wrote: Uncomfortable, really? :?
Oh, absolutely. These are very different situations. Have you (or someone close to you) never developed a romantic interest in someone you've known for a long time? I have, and have known others who have, and it can be a very awkward thing to broach. Maybe you're too young to have experienced these things, or maybe you're just lucky and should go play the lottery.

Also, you're essentially being called out on something very embarrassing and being put on the spot, in front of a close friend/romantic interest and someone in a position of authority.

I'd ask if I need to go on, as normally we could have moved on a long time ago. Yes, the sexual orientation of many characters in the show is intentionally ambiguous, but based on some of the things you're questioning or points you're trying to raise, it would appear you are either trolling or need to double-check your perception of reality.
VACOOLA wrote:
nwt000 wrote:Heidi doesn't need to gain weight to become the female equivalent of Cartman, nor should she do so because she looks fine the way she is and it would be pretty stupid if she became fat and out of shape just for being evil. Not all villains need to look repulsive you know. Besides, those "Beauty" and "Beast" shirts that they wear would basically lose their purpose.
She doesn't need to gain weight, but she might as well if she keeps dating Cartman. Moreover, if she gains enough weight, figuratively speaking, to become the dominant one, there is a good chance Fatass will start losing weight while orbiting her (I highly doubt that, but who the hell knows). The closest analogy would be Dr. Evil's son Scott who began losing his hair the moment he decided to follow in his nutty bald dad's footsteps. So becoming fugly is one of many possible ways for Heidi to outcartman Cartman. Not to mention that as a romantic villain couple they might also need a bunch of sharks with freakin' laser beams attached to their heads......

But this is pure speculation, of course. The point is that if they get to stay together, something will have to change inevitably. However, not necessarily the way either of them looks.
Hm. Sounds like this is all headed in a very Despicable Me direction. ;)
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby Big-Will » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:39 pm

nall wrote:Hm. Sounds like this is all headed in a very Despicable Me direction. ;)
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby nall » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:51 pm

Big-Will wrote:
nall wrote:Hm. Sounds like this is all headed in a very Despicable Me direction. ;)
PLUG!
Hey, I sent you a PM recently, if you'd like me to do anything with the response, you should probably reply in the next few hours :)
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby nall » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:08 am

One thing I will add about this season is that I liked all the Cartman and Heidi fanart. Thanks to all who drew it.

I'm glad (most of) our official couples get so much love :D
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby kfgg » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:24 pm

nall wrote:One thing I will add about this season is that I liked all the Cartman and Heidi fanart. Thanks to all who drew it.

I'm glad (most of) our official couples get so much love :D
You must spend a lot of time on Tumblr. There's so much of it there. Part of the job handling all the Internet, Social Media right?
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby JVM » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:38 am

Nall wrote:Yes, the sexual orientation of many characters in the show is intentionally ambiguous.
I don't want to risk re-derailing the topic, but I'll only say this - I have always leaned that the nature of the South Park universe has always leaned towards a fluid sexuality with little to no emphasis on labels. "Two Guys Naked in a Hot Tub" illustrates that everybody (or at least men) in the town is a "little gay" pretty outright. Hell, notice how Garrison has consistently defied any label applied to him for all but the few middle seasons of the series when he is openly gay. Participating in heterosexual or homosexual acts don't define a character's sexuality. Not to mention from a storytelling and comedic standpoint, it's obviously easier for Trey to keep the ambiguity alive - we wouldn't have Heidi/Cartman to play with this semester if Cartman had been defined as homosexual earlier, for instance.

Unfortunately, trying to avoid labels can mingle with erasure in certain instances. As the Cartman Wiki debacle showed, my intent to avoid the issue drew it out instead.
Nall wrote:On a related topic, what was up with Cartman and Heidi at the very end there? Opinions? ;)
It's hard to say exactly what's going through Cartman's head here.

I've covered elsewhere their relationship thru "Member Berries" is adversarial, a hair more so than his with most other female characters save Wendy and Bebe, though notably related via stories. It's in "The Damned" that Heidi reaches out to him, potentially to apologize as she later does, and though both seen numb at first, Heidi shows the first sign of positive emotion as he offers to follow her and she smiles. He remains emotionless until her little offer at the end though. We had some spirited discussion about if that meant a relationship was in store and lo and behold, it was. Heidi seems to have a subtle initiative and is genuinely growing to like him.

"Weiners Out" suggests a shift from when Cartman saw her genitalia and "Douche and a Danish" seem to mostly portray them as happy as we've ever seen the former, until Kyle ambiguously threatens to expose his internet history, and he lies to her for the first time. It seems as if Heidi was growing to like Cartman, perhaps realizing he's not as bad as she thought, but it's not until she shows him a part of herself that he begins to grow feelings in turn (his emotions are hard to read in "The Damned") and it opens up his worldview... of course, the visions of Mars don't pay off. Nonetheless, it is Kyle who first plants the seeds of mistrust in him.

When Garrison wins the election, we begin to see something a little more though - Cartman cries as he insists women are as funny as men, and Heidi seems to rest on hearing his words. Previously, 'smart and funny' mostly seemed to be a joke, but here, it's become a key foundation element of their relationship, as mentioned in "The Damned". Why does this matter? By reinforcing it in a time of need, we see Heidi being those things is important to both of them. Yet, as we see him crying, it might be tied to the election, but it might also be the first hint he doesn't mean it.

At SpaceX, as Cartman seeks to explain Heidi finding out his past as if she should somehow be shocked, but the seeds of mistrust are sown again as his desire to escape wi-fi comes back out. We've seen before some anger when Kyle didn't think she was funny, but now seeing Butters does think so drives him into a tricky position. Finding Heidi funny has become the key to their relationship. This threat is what drives him against Butters, but Butters' suggestion Heidi can and will break his heart plays right into this mistrust and this issue. When he tries to talk to her about this, and get rid of his doubt, she tells no jokes and runs over to Elon Musk and co. The trust is broken.

In the finale, he seems to acknowledge not finding her funny and his Mars visions now ending in a horrific alternate world don't help, driving his misogyny. Even now though, he waves sweetly at her and still seems to thin highly of Heidi Turner personally, even if he mistrusts women.

So to review the running threads:
  • Cartman finding Heidi funny is a key element of their relationship and anything that breaks him finding her hilarious is a threat: Kyle or Butters, mostly. Losing this aspect of their relationship is a key point in breaking their trust.
  • Seeing her genitalia has triggered his optimistic Mars visions of the future, but when they finish themselves as a vision of misogynism, this undermines another key running thread that had him happy about their relationship.
  • Speculatively, I think breaking Heidi's trust once by lying to her open the theoretical floodgates to breaking it again and again during the last few episodes.
Cartman now mistrusts women as a whole again, and he is aware Heidi is one of them, but I'm not sure if he sees her as a key part of their plan, or whether the whole thing is just undermining his already broken trust in the first place. It depends on how the next season addresses this. I would like to see the Gender War storyline could continue, as it still provides a beautiful opportunity to expand on the female characters and wasn't explored as much in the second half of the season, but I'm aware Matt and Trey will probably want to try out a new storyline, and might be eager to drop it since the plots were derailed by the election and the the press for S20 has been a little unkind.

(Wonder if Cartman's relationship with Liane will change given she's a woman...)

One of the odd notes is that Heidi being funny is genuinely questionable. The viewer never hears her tell a joke in the entirety of the season, but Cartman does reference jokes told off-screen, such as the skeleton and the skunk, and the little bits mumbled in "Douche and a Danish"... but story-wise, it seems this is still supposed to lead to the expectation we realize and believe that she's not actually funny. Hard to say.

I honestly think it would've been a fine ending to have Heidi find out the truth and just point out Cartman's killed someone's parents, and everyone knows, and if she can look past that, a mean tweet about Ghostbusters is fine. It fails to address the key, genuine question at the heart of this, but it does resolve the plot. I do wish we'd seen a slightly more open awareness on Heidi's part of his past, or both of them for their limited past together. She knew what she was getting into :P

Not going to lie though, my dreams of seeing them raise hell together survive, if only because when they mumble in the gym about seeing that guy at Denny's who's head looked like a dick seems to imply some element of shared... 'being willing to laugh at others. 'Sadism' is far too strong a word. It would certainly add another layer to Heidi beyond being smart.
Nall wrote:One thing I will add about this season is that I liked all the Cartman and Heidi fanart. Thanks to all who drew it.

I'm glad (most of) our official couples get so much love :D
It's been an honor, as a fan, to see Cartman/Heidi and Red/Kevin enter South Park canon and seeing them strengthened in fanon as a result. I've really been enjoying the bump both pairings have received - there's been a lot of beautiful Heiman art, but every little bit of Revin that comes way still feels as good as when I was usually the one personally requesting it.
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Re: *2010: The End of Serialization As We Know It* Post-Air Thread

Postby mario88 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:01 pm

when it comes to kids, it's normal to mantain a certain level of "fluidity", because... they are kids, they are not fully developed people. we can quote the simpsons on that, when nelson (if i recall correctly) bullies the fat nerd kid calling him homosexual and he replies: "i'm not homosexual... i'm not anything yet" (i am going with my memory on this so the words might not be 100% right but the sense was that). but really, waaaaay too many people love to speculate too much on such things. most of them trying to force their fantasies onto things. it's not just south park of course, it happens pretty much with any popular show. as for randy and gerald in the hot tube, i tend to agree with the point of that episode, there is probably a 1% of homosexuality in heterosexual people, just like, i believe, there is a 1% of heterosexuality in homosexual people.
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