The Official Stan Discussion Thread

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ShaneHaughey
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby ShaneHaughey » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:54 am

The last episode of season 11 was a Stan/Wendy. If it is anywhere near the main plot of an episode in the first half of season 12, then that shows a lack of creativity.
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stanmarshsp
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby stanmarshsp » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:22 pm

Stan is the best
he isn't like fat ass :stanpuke:
HAcoreRD
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby HAcoreRD » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:23 pm

ShaneHaughey wrote:The last episode of season 11 was a Stan/Wendy. If it is anywhere near the main plot of an episode in the first half of season 12, then that shows a lack of creativity.


Care to explain?

Bringing up Wendy/Stan, especially early isn't a lack of creativity, it's a sign of continuity. Instead of having Wendy ride background for 10 episodes to a season, they can move her up in 'rank' and have her do more. Season 6 showed continuity when they mentioned Kenny's death almost once per every episode, and personally, after giving an episode that's main focus was on Stan and Wendy working as a unit then ending with them refinding their love for eachother, I'd like to see where it can go. For all we know, Season 12 can start off with Stan and Wendy breaking up again, and seeing as "The List" aired yesterday, and there was no "Guitar Queero" I can almost believe it aired to refresh viewers how the season closed, so openning it they'll be reminded.

Maybe I expect too much, or hope for too much, but I still think that Stan/Wendy isn't lack of creativity, I see it as the forging of some continuity, that cannot harm the show.
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby ShaneHaughey » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:36 am

HAcoreRD wrote:
ShaneHaughey wrote:The last episode of season 11 was a Stan/Wendy. If it is anywhere near the main plot of an episode in the first half of season 12, then that shows a lack of creativity.


Care to explain?

Bringing up Wendy/Stan, especially early isn't a lack of creativity, it's a sign of continuity. Instead of having Wendy ride background for 10 episodes to a season, they can move her up in 'rank' and have her do more. Season 6 showed continuity when they mentioned Kenny's death almost once per every episode, and personally, after giving an episode that's main focus was on Stan and Wendy working as a unit then ending with them refinding their love for eachother, I'd like to see where it can go. For all we know, Season 12 can start off with Stan and Wendy breaking up again, and seeing as "The List" aired yesterday, and there was no "Guitar Queero" I can almost believe it aired to refresh viewers how the season closed, so openning it they'll be reminded.

Maybe I expect too much, or hope for too much, but I still think that Stan/Wendy isn't lack of creativity, I see it as the forging of some continuity, that cannot harm the show.


It is a lack of creativity in the same vein as if there were two Kyle v. Cartman episodes in the same run. You can have their relationship mentioned, but it has to be on the back burner, like it was in the early days of the show. It could turn a plot, it could be a plot point, or it could just be there, but having it be the main plot of an episode would be a mistake.


"Season 6 showed continuity when they mentioned Kenny's death almost once per every episode"
Yeah, and with the exception of episodes near the end of the season, it was on the back burner- and it was damned better that way. This quote strengthens my case and weakens yours. BTW, do you know what I even mean by back burner? It means to not be the main plot of an episode. For most of season six, Kenny's death was not the main plot, it was a plot point. It was something that could be used to further the plot or make a character act a certain way to enhance the plot. Until the latter half of the season, it was not how you seem to want the Stan/Wendy thing to begin season 12: As a major plot.

The difference between a plot and a plot point is critical. A plot is the central theme and story, a plot point is what drives the characters and events. If Stan/Wendy is a plot, it is a lack of creativity. If it is a plot point, and therefore Stan/Wendy are still on the backburner in terms of plot, then it builds continuity.
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ShaneHaughey
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby ShaneHaughey » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:17 pm

Stan was not anywhere in that clip, and Kyle seemed right pissed off about something. Simple math: Cartman has done something to Stan.

Thoughts?
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Infusions
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby Infusions » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:38 pm

About Wendy coming back: I don't really like that idea. Not because it's "uncreative" or anything, but because it's so rare to get an all-boys episode already, why make it even harder by making another character get a chance to get a lot of featured episodes?

Can you imagine if Clyde, Craig, Wendy, Token, Tweek, Timmy, and Jimmy all became main characters to the point where they have frequent featured episodes for them, rather than the occasionly feature? It'd be pretty hard for the actual boys to get some screentime. :0

About the No-Stan-in-Clip: fdsjkgjdklfg I want to see what's going on DID CARTMAN DO SOMETHING TO STAN because that would be a nice change of pace. Cartman seems to always leave Stan out of his reign of terror unless Stan is against him. It'd be fun to see how Stan would react when he's finally a target of Cartman's.
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HAcoreRD
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby HAcoreRD » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:53 am

Infusions wrote:About Wendy coming back: I don't really like that idea. Not because it's "uncreative" or anything, but because it's so rare to get an all-boys episode already, why make it even harder by making another character get a chance to get a lot of featured episodes?

Can you imagine if Clyde, Craig, Wendy, Token, Tweek, Timmy, and Jimmy all became main characters to the point where they have frequent featured episodes for them, rather than the occasionly feature? It'd be pretty hard for the actual boys to get some screentime. :0


Well, with Chef 'dead', the group still has that void to fill, which is why I'd see Wendy as the Chef filler. Gives Stan/Wendy angle room, so there'd be a lesser 'Raisins' repeat, and gives the boys some smart feminine advice, whether they'd take it or not.

Imo, Timmy and Jimmy had their moments. Timmy's character is hard to use since his vocabulary is shorter than Ike's or Kenny's. Jimmy can still be used, though, only if the episode's running short and they need his stuttering to kill a few minutes...his character offers nothing that Craig or Clyde couldn't. Token would be an interesting usage, though he'd stay tier 2, since he and Cartman would fight more than Kyle/Cartman. Don't need another feud growing, otherwise Stan and Kenny might as well sit out 1/2 the season.

At this point, I'd be happy if they tied up the knots.

*Use Wendy: at this point, I'd say have her and the girls lead and episode as they normally do once a season, maybe have her and one of the four boys side story another episode or 2.

*Use Kenny: Kenny and Stan can work well together, mostly because Kenny's almost like a blank sheet of paper. Butters took Kenny's spot as Cartman's pawn, and Stan/Kyle can be manipulative themselves (see Season 6), so they can befriend Kenny and/or use him for their ends. Who says Stan and Kyle don't have black spots on their hearts?

And one thing I saw in Tonsil Trouble that I loved was Kyle's anger. Very dark, almost like a different character. I'd like to see if Stan has this side. Stan seems more emotional than Kyle (Hence goth Stan), but I want to see Stan go berserk to a like similiar to Kyle, or see Stan end up being a episode (or a 2-3 parter) Villian, just to mix it up. He has his own ambitions too I assume.
CassieNova
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby CassieNova » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:33 pm

Stan is one of the best characters on South Park. I agree to make him my favorite.
CassieNova
ShaneHaughey
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby ShaneHaughey » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:08 pm

HAcoreRD wrote:
Infusions wrote:About Wendy coming back: I don't really like that idea. Not because it's "uncreative" or anything, but because it's so rare to get an all-boys episode already, why make it even harder by making another character get a chance to get a lot of featured episodes?

Can you imagine if Clyde, Craig, Wendy, Token, Tweek, Timmy, and Jimmy all became main characters to the point where they have frequent featured episodes for them, rather than the occasionly feature? It'd be pretty hard for the actual boys to get some screentime. :0


Well, with Chef 'dead', the group still has that void to fill, which is why I'd see Wendy as the Chef filler. Gives Stan/Wendy angle room, so there'd be a lesser 'Raisins' repeat, and gives the boys some smart feminine advice, whether they'd take it or not.

Imo, Timmy and Jimmy had their moments. Timmy's character is hard to use since his vocabulary is shorter than Ike's or Kenny's. Jimmy can still be used, though, only if the episode's running short and they need his stuttering to kill a few minutes...his character offers nothing that Craig or Clyde couldn't. Token would be an interesting usage, though he'd stay tier 2, since he and Cartman would fight more than Kyle/Cartman. Don't need another feud growing, otherwise Stan and Kenny might as well sit out 1/2 the season.

At this point, I'd be happy if they tied up the knots.

*Use Wendy: at this point, I'd say have her and the girls lead and episode as they normally do once a season, maybe have her and one of the four boys side story another episode or 2.

*Use Kenny: Kenny and Stan can work well together, mostly because Kenny's almost like a blank sheet of paper. Butters took Kenny's spot as Cartman's pawn, and Stan/Kyle can be manipulative themselves (see Season 6), so they can befriend Kenny and/or use him for their ends. Who says Stan and Kyle don't have black spots on their hearts?

And one thing I saw in Tonsil Trouble that I loved was Kyle's anger. Very dark, almost like a different character. I'd like to see if Stan has this side. Stan seems more emotional than Kyle (Hence goth Stan), but I want to see Stan go berserk to a like similiar to Kyle, or see Stan end up being a episode (or a 2-3 parter) Villian, just to mix it up. He has his own ambitions too I assume.


1- Wendy can not fill the "Chef" role in any way. She fills her spot and nothing more, nor will she ever be able to fill any other role. Her role, as it is, leaves more than enough room for expansion, so trying to have her fill another role is not needed. She doesn't need to become the fifth biggest member of the show. As it stands, having her role be bigger than it was pre-Raisins is not needed; all that is needed is for that role to be acknowledged more.

2- Wendy doesn't need to be a side story or a plot point to have her role be acknowledged, she would just need to be mentioned.

3- Remember in #1009, when Stan pulled a gun on Kyle? That gun was loaded and you don't pull out a loaded gun at that point in the story unless, if only for a second, you planned on pulling the trigger. Stan does have his own darkness and, as Vexille and I have discussed before, he is probably capable of more violence than any other kid.
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby Big-Will » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:17 pm

ShaneHaughey wrote:Stan does have his own darkness and, as Vexille and I have discussed before, he is probably capable of more violence than any other kid.

Come again? Has he made a kid eat his own parents in a bowl of chili? Has he given another kids AIDS orally? Why I oughta... :evil:

On second thought, those are more evil than violent.
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ShaneHaughey
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby ShaneHaughey » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:59 am

There is a difference between evil and violence. Cartman didn't kill the Tennormans, and hacking apart the bodies is less violent and more just disgusting. But...you did agree with me.:P
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HAcoreRD
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby HAcoreRD » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:10 am

ShaneHaughey wrote:1- Wendy can not fill the "Chef" role in any way. She fills her spot and nothing more, nor will she ever be able to fill any other role. Her role, as it is, leaves more than enough room for expansion, so trying to have her fill another role is not needed. She doesn't need to become the fifth biggest member of the show. As it stands, having her role be bigger than it was pre-Raisins is not needed; all that is needed is for that role to be acknowledged more.

2- Wendy doesn't need to be a side story or a plot point to have her role be acknowledged, she would just need to be mentioned.

3- Remember in #1009, when Stan pulled a gun on Kyle? That gun was loaded and you don't pull out a loaded gun at that point in the story unless, if only for a second, you planned on pulling the trigger. Stan does have his own darkness and, as Vexille and I have discussed before, he is probably capable of more violence than any other kid.


1.) nothing can stop Wendy from filling anyone's role unless the creators decide so. Butters filled Kenny's spot, and she can never be the 5th biggest character, as the 4 boys + butters makes that, and noone will pick Wendy over the main characters or Butters. Her role does, need to acknowledged more, which is something we can agree on.

2.) Problem is, she's hardly used...i guess it's season lay out, M/T seem to do a mix these days: 1-2 Continuation Episodes, 4-5 Real life event ones, and the rest can be old school(ish) mix episodes. Wendy's just difficult to use without dropping someone unless it's a continuation episode line.

3.) To be fair, we can never know if the gun was loaded. It could've been a bluff (Like Cartman from "Cartoon Wars Part 2") who, despite having a pistol, proved it was unloaded. In my eyes, Stan would've never have pulled the trigger, because he'd psychologically and mentally self destruct when he realizes what he did. I don't see Stan capable of violence since it took him an episode to kill Scuzzlebutt. Stan's conscious and reasoning is what stops him from fighting throughout the series, as he only fights when he's pushed to the edge, which is rarely.
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby ShaneHaughey » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:59 pm

HAcoreRD wrote:
ShaneHaughey wrote:1- Wendy can not fill the "Chef" role in any way. She fills her spot and nothing more, nor will she ever be able to fill any other role. Her role, as it is, leaves more than enough room for expansion, so trying to have her fill another role is not needed. She doesn't need to become the fifth biggest member of the show. As it stands, having her role be bigger than it was pre-Raisins is not needed; all that is needed is for that role to be acknowledged more.

2- Wendy doesn't need to be a side story or a plot point to have her role be acknowledged, she would just need to be mentioned.

3- Remember in #1009, when Stan pulled a gun on Kyle? That gun was loaded and you don't pull out a loaded gun at that point in the story unless, if only for a second, you planned on pulling the trigger. Stan does have his own darkness and, as Vexille and I have discussed before, he is probably capable of more violence than any other kid.


1.) nothing can stop Wendy from filling anyone's role unless the creators decide so. Butters filled Kenny's spot, and she can never be the 5th biggest character, as the 4 boys + butters makes that, and noone will pick Wendy over the main characters or Butters. Her role does, need to acknowledged more, which is something we can agree on.

2.) Problem is, she's hardly used...i guess it's season lay out, M/T seem to do a mix these days: 1-2 Continuation Episodes, 4-5 Real life event ones, and the rest can be old school(ish) mix episodes. Wendy's just difficult to use without dropping someone unless it's a continuation episode line.

3.) To be fair, we can never know if the gun was loaded. It could've been a bluff (Like Cartman from "Cartoon Wars Part 2") who, despite having a pistol, proved it was unloaded. In my eyes, Stan would've never have pulled the trigger, because he'd psychologically and mentally self destruct when he realizes what he did. I don't see Stan capable of violence since it took him an episode to kill Scuzzlebutt. Stan's conscious and reasoning is what stops him from fighting throughout the series, as he only fights when he's pushed to the edge, which is rarely.


1- Nothing can stop anyone from filling anyone's role, this is true. So why don't we start arguing on how Kenny should replace Chef? Or, how about Timmy? The reason we don't is because it makes little sense for the character as is. Changing the character to fit a new role is fine for fanfiction, is terrible for the show, especially when characters have ben established as they are.

2- Let us look at #1201. Up until Cartman infects Kyle with HIV, any scene with Stan could have had just one line or a small piece of animation. look at the preview clip; no Stan or Wendy. How hard would it have been to animate them talking/hugging/whatever in the background? Or have Kyle ask Stan about Wendy at the bus stop as Cartman comes up? That is all that is needed and doesn't require anything in the plot to change. It is just that the show has become plot-centric and less character-centric.

3- The difference is that Cartman was relying on fear to attempt to force the network head to make a decision in his favor. At the time that Stan pulled the gun out, there would have been absolutely no way to convince the Hardly Boys and Kyle to keep quiet given what had happened. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that, for a spilt second and out of fear and confusion, he was ready to kill Kyle and the Hardly boys. Take into account how good a friendship Stan and Kyle have, then imagine that instead of Kyle it had been Cartman or someone else. He may have killed someone. Now, what happens afterwards? He would spiral out of control for sure. No one is sayig he would have killed a friend and walked away and just acted normally.
Also, do you remember what he says when he finally does kill scuzzlebutt? He got over his complete pacifism.
And we agree, he'd only get violent when pushed to the edge. The question is how far can he go, and from what I know about people, it is exactly the Stan-type people who if someone attacks them they end up leaving the attacker in the hospital. I had to explain this a long time ago, but being violent does not automatically equate to someone being mean, a danger to society, or otherwise being a negative influence on society. It means that if attacked, provoked, or put in a situation in which violence is needed, they are willing to do what is necessary. I believe that Stan has the ability to do what is needed, when it is needed, and as well as needed in terms of violence in order to not be a victim of the event that has transpired.
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HAcoreRD
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby HAcoreRD » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:13 pm

I agree to disagree.

1.) timmy definately not, as he can only say "Timmy" "jimmy" and "Gobbles", unless someone hits him with a 2X4 and he acts normal. Kenny...maybe, he always gives out perverted advice. I do see your point on switching roles, but kenny really has none at this point...he's just there to keep "the boys" whole in my eyes, though that could change in 4 days for all we know.

2.) Again, i agree, they can easily be done, but then again, after watching Imaginationland DVD, it could've been done and was cut to make time, seeing as the episode length pushed the time bracket by a few seconds. Still, I'd like atleast a nod towards this. "how's Wendy, Stan?" *Barf* "Oh, that good huh?"

3.) It'd have made more sense if Stan capped the Hardly boys before turning the gun on Kyle. Stan could've then used fear to silence Kyle, or maybe he'd have kept silent out of friendship, as Kyle would've had his anwser about 9/11, and Stan would've walked free, since the government could've used the dead Hardly boys to link to 9/11. (Though the father would've needed to be killed too). I see your point about "out of fear", Stan acts human, especially when backed in a corner, but I still don't believe he would've killed Kyle.

Pacifism maybe the wrong term, Stan is always anti-war in nature and tends to talk before fighting, minus the Mormon episode, where he was provoked by his friends. Stan is always sympathetic to animals too, as he hoped he didn't hurt any beavers after crashing the boat in "two Days before the Day after tommorow". I do see your point about the "Stan-Type People" since I almost can consider myself one, except I tend to tell myself "I'm gonna have to fight" before trying to talk myself out of it.

I'm still eager for some more dark Stan. Stan and Kyle are just presented as 2 goody goody. Kyle showed his darkness last episode, I doubt Stan will follow suit, though I'm sure he will soon enough.
nikola0192
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Re: The Second Official Stan Discussion Thread

Postby nikola0192 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:31 am

Do you think Stan (or even Kenny) in the new episode will actually have more lines than Butters? I mean, as much as i like the little guy, I think he's kinda taking over Stan and Kenny roles. I love these characters, bring 'em on! When it says the 'boys', i hope it means the four main ones not, the four main ones... and Butters.
Stan is awesome by the way. :D
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