Who else here HATES Cartman besides me?!

Discuss South Park characters with all your friends, buddies and guys.

Moderator: Big-Will

Elrog
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Postby Elrog » Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:43 pm

Broflovskifan1234 wrote:I agree with cloudywings211 Cartman needs to be kicked off the show hes too racist and hes a dumbass.....dont get me wrong cartman lovers he does have his funny moments but mostly all the time I wish he could jump off a cliff and Die
[quote]

Broflovskifan1234 do you realize how horrible the show would be without him? Name one funny episode that doesn't need Cartman. Without Cartman, Kyle and Stan wouldn't be funny either. And Kenny needs the poor jokes to be noticed. Racist that is his best aspect? Have you even seen the Snuke? The endding was hilarious because of how racist he was. I realize I should not be on this thread, but I know people hate him but wishing he would die is just crossing the line, him being my all time favorite character.
ShaneHaughey
Posts: 11192
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:36 pm

Postby ShaneHaughey » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:23 pm

Do I think Cartman is a base, low-level, character who is so easy to write for that any real character depth is substituted for non-depth? Yes.

Do I think he is the sole reason the show is funny/good? NO.

However, do I think he should be killed off or otherwise obliterated? No. He fills an important role, though he does so poorly.
That's how it's down here on the farm!
southparkluvrr
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:18 pm

Postby southparkluvrr » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:56 am

Well, firstly, I can't see how anyone can hate Cartman. He's the character you love to hate. I mean, you've got to kind of admire him. This kid really doesn't give a f*ck what people think about him. He always speaks what's on his mind, even if people don't like it. He insults EVERYONE. And he randomly bursts into song! What more do you want? (Actually, Cartman hasn't sung in a while...let's hope we hear more Cartman songs this season!)

Second of all, I don't understand how you can hate Cartman and like South Park. It doesn't make sense. The show basically revolves around Cartman. He's the protagonist in pretty much every episode, with a few exceptions (Trapped in the Closet, etc.) He's the catalyst for mostly all the plots. It's time to face the facts: without Cartman, South Park would be nothing!

So stop hating on Cartman, and respect his authoritah, GOD DAMMIT!
Tweeks_Coffee
Posts: 1793
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:14 pm

Postby Tweeks_Coffee » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:31 pm

South Park is not all about Cartman, contrary to popular belief. Plenty of episodes do not involve him or, at least, relegate him to a small role. The fact that Cartman is the current focus of the show makes me hate him all the more. I like the other characters and want to see them. South Park is not a one character show, but it seems a lot of people have ignored that fact. What made South Park great was when it was a full ensemble show, not The Cartman Show.
Image
tjrd
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:03 pm

Postby tjrd » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:01 pm

I don't think I would like the show half as much if I'd start hating Cartman.
Let's fighting love!
ShaneHaughey
Posts: 11192
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:36 pm

Postby ShaneHaughey » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:38 pm

southparkluvrr wrote:Well, firstly, I can't see how anyone can hate Cartman. He's the character you love to hate. I mean, you've got to kind of admire him. This kid really doesn't give a f*ck what people think about him. He always speaks what's on his mind, even if people don't like it. He insults EVERYONE. And he randomly bursts into song! What more do you want? (Actually, Cartman hasn't sung in a while...let's hope we hear more Cartman songs this season!)

Second of all, I don't understand how you can hate Cartman and like South Park. It doesn't make sense. The show basically revolves around Cartman. He's the protagonist in pretty much every episode, with a few exceptions (Trapped in the Closet, etc.) He's the catalyst for mostly all the plots. It's time to face the facts: without Cartman, South Park would be nothing!

So stop hating on Cartman, and respect his authoritah, GOD DAMMIT!


1- He is a base character. In other words, he has no real development. There isn't a real character, just a mock up of everything you'd rather not have in a kid. That can be done quickly, easily, and to be frank, Cartman saying, "f*ck you, Jew!" isn't funny.

2- I don't love to hate him, I hate him. I look forward to the episodes where he is a sideline character. He works better as the DH than he does as the man batting third, if you know what I mean.

3- Guess what? Insults get boring. "Token's black, Kyle's a jew, Stan is a pussy, etc" gets old.

4- Speaking his mind is good, but all the main characters do that most of the time.

5- He is the main protoganist in about 25% of the episodes. In others, he is a plot point and nothing more. An example would be Biggest Douche in the Universe: Cartman is NOT the protoganist. He is a plot point.

6- He is the catalyst for, yet again, about 33% of all the plots. In some of them, he takes the role of protoganist, other times he is a plot point, and yet he is a antoganist.

7- Let's face facts: Cartman isn't special. Most people could whip up his character in ten seconds:
"Hey, let's make him a fat, racist f*ck who is offensive to everyone for no reason other than to be offensive!!!"

8- Cartman IS funny when he is used properly. Let me just use the baseball analogy a little better:
When you want a comedy homerun, call in Cartman. However, if you have him pinch hit in every situation, then he isn't as effective. Use Stan, Kyle, Kenny, etc to get on base with comedy singles. good, funny sh*t. Then, when yiou need him, have Cartman smack it out of the park.
That's how it's down here on the farm!
203177
Posts: 6599
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:14 am

Postby 203177 » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:19 pm

203177
well in my opinion I don't think cartman is a bad person he just uses to many racial remarks against other peoples relegions. I don't hate hate cartman I only like him when he's funny and tells alot of funny jokes.
My favorite sp characters: Bridon(he's so cute!)
Kyle,Stan, Kenny/Mysterion.

Fave ep: ESM Season 12,Sec fave: Butterballs Season 16
ShaneHaughey
Posts: 11192
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:36 pm

Postby ShaneHaughey » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:20 pm

203177 wrote:203177
well in my opinion I don't think cartman is a bad person he just uses to many racial remarks against other peoples relegions. I don't hate hate cartman I only like him when he's funny and tells alot of funny jokes.


That's the best way togo about it, liking him-wise.
That's how it's down here on the farm!
Kyle's_Marklar
Posts: 1747
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:08 pm

Re: Who else here HATES Cartman besides me?!

Postby Kyle's_Marklar » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:15 am

[quote="cloudywings211":27e24]:evil: he's really annoying! he's the one who causes the trouble for the other boys....he's such a butthole.

he needs to stop picking on the other kids just because they're jewish or poor or because their dog is gay,he's probably just jealous that he's not as cool as the others.

fatass needs to get off his case!!![/quote:27e24]

Yea, that would be a fun show. Having Cartman not pick on anyone.

I'd definitely tune in every week to see that.
Remember... the more posts you have, the bigger your penis is!
ShaneHaughey
Posts: 11192
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:36 pm

Re: Who else here HATES Cartman besides me?!

Postby ShaneHaughey » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:37 pm

Kyle's_Marklar wrote:
cloudywings211 wrote::evil: he's really annoying! he's the one who causes the trouble for the other boys....he's such a butthole.

he needs to stop picking on the other kids just because they're jewish or poor or because their dog is gay,he's probably just jealous that he's not as cool as the others.

fatass needs to get off his case!!!


Yea, that would be a fun show. Having Cartman not pick on anyone.

I'd definitely tune in every week to see that.


I partially agree with both of you. It has become Cartman ripping on something and that's it. It went from, "What will happen this week?" to, "Who will Cartman rip on this week?"

ON the flip side, however, a Cartman who doesn't make fun of anyone is a Cartman who isn't nearly as funny.
That's how it's down here on the farm!
Killahertz9
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:46 pm

Postby Killahertz9 » Fri May 04, 2007 12:49 am

Wow, some of you keep those blinder shields on even when you sleep don't you?

Cartman is the funniest character on the show. Period. Even Matt and Trey have said that, so being the sheep that I am, I happen to agree with them. If you are looking for nonconfrontational characters to like on the show, may I suggest Spider Riders. This argument that Cartman is the least funniest character on the show leads me to believe that some of you watch this sh*t for the wrong reasons, which is fine, just don't be surprised that people argue with you and point out the obvious. The show is outrageous, controversial, topical, hysterical, and if you haven't realized in the past 11 seasons, f*cking wrong on many levels (jesus getting killed (2x)). This isn't a politically correct show, this is South Park. Just Enjoy.
Image
ShaneHaughey
Posts: 11192
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:36 pm

Postby ShaneHaughey » Fri May 04, 2007 1:18 am

Killahertz9 wrote:Wow, some of you keep those blinder shields on even when you sleep don't you?

Cartman is the funniest character on the show. Period. Even Matt and Trey have said that, so being the sheep that I am, I happen to agree with them. If you are looking for nonconfrontational characters to like on the show, may I suggest Spider Riders. This argument that Cartman is the least funniest character on the show leads me to believe that some of you watch this sh*t for the wrong reasons, which is fine, just don't be surprised that people argue with you and point out the obvious. The show is outrageous, controversial, topical, hysterical, and if you haven't realized in the past 11 seasons, f*cking wrong on many levels (jesus getting killed (2x)). This isn't a politically correct show, this is South Park. Just Enjoy.


1- Cartman being the funniest character is a personal opinion, just like not liking him is personal opinion. If you can't handle opinions and decide that only those that agree with you are right, then I suggest you bone up on your buddy Hitler.

2- I do think Cartman is funny and I do like the confrontational nature of the show. But, guess what? The show was becoming, "What will cartman do THIS week!"

3- You said:
The show is outrageous, controversial, topical, hysterical, and if you haven't realized in the past 11 seasons, f*cking wrong on many levels (jesus getting killed (2x)). This isn't a politically correct show, this is South Park. Just enjoy.

Which has nothing to do with Cartman and problems with him.
That's how it's down here on the farm!
Killahertz9
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:46 pm

Postby Killahertz9 » Fri May 04, 2007 6:31 pm

ShaneHaughey wrote:
Killahertz9 wrote:Wow, some of you keep those blinder shields on even when you sleep don't you?

Cartman is the funniest character on the show. Period. Even Matt and Trey have said that, so being the sheep that I am, I happen to agree with them. If you are looking for nonconfrontational characters to like on the show, may I suggest Spider Riders. This argument that Cartman is the least funniest character on the show leads me to believe that some of you watch this sh*t for the wrong reasons, which is fine, just don't be surprised that people argue with you and point out the obvious. The show is outrageous, controversial, topical, hysterical, and if you haven't realized in the past 11 seasons, f*cking wrong on many levels (jesus getting killed (2x)). This isn't a politically correct show, this is South Park. Just Enjoy.


1- Cartman being the funniest character is a personal opinion, just like not liking him is personal opinion. If you can't handle opinions and decide that only those that agree with you are right, then I suggest you bone up on your buddy Hitler.

2- I do think Cartman is funny and I do like the confrontational nature of the show. But, guess what? The show was becoming, "What will cartman do THIS week!"

3- You said:
The show is outrageous, controversial, topical, hysterical, and if you haven't realized in the past 11 seasons, f*cking wrong on many levels (jesus getting killed (2x)). This isn't a politically correct show, this is South Park. Just enjoy.

Which has nothing to do with Cartman and problems with him.



1. Not only is finding humor in something a personal opinion, it's also the personal opinion of the creators of the show that you claim to be a fan of. If you don't get "their" humor lately, then lately you haven't been getting the show, it's really that simple. If your tired of Cartman getting too many shows evolving around him, then guess what? You know longer get the show. I can't make it any more simple for you.

2. M&T obviously think that Cartman is the funniest character on the show because that's why we have a lot of Cartman episodes. You don't like it, keep bitching about it and keep claiming to be a South Park fan. I'm sure M&T listen to all of their so called "fans" who bitch about the show. Quess what? Majority of South Park fans get it, just a few who dedicate themselves on this board obviously don't.

3. The excuses that many of you express why Cartman isn't funny or he's your least favorite character falls into the same catagory that describes South Park. Like South Park, Cartman is outrageous, controversail, topical, hysterical and politically inccorect. Lately, he's a bigger character then the other three because he's over the top and wrong on many, many levels.

..and I want to mention one thing before I go. Being a fan doesn't mean you have to be a sheep. I agree with many of you who say that, but you can't also talk out of the other side of your mouth and claim to be a fan only to be hypersensitive on every episode. It's not fair to put something on a pedistal only to expect it to live up to your expectations and when it doesn't, you criticize it. I'm not just talking about one episode per run, it's every episode with some of you people.
Image
ShaneHaughey
Posts: 11192
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:36 pm

Postby ShaneHaughey » Sat May 05, 2007 10:43 pm

Killahertz9 wrote:
ShaneHaughey wrote:
Killahertz9 wrote:Wow, some of you keep those blinder shields on even when you sleep don't you?

Cartman is the funniest character on the show. Period. Even Matt and Trey have said that, so being the sheep that I am, I happen to agree with them. If you are looking for nonconfrontational characters to like on the show, may I suggest Spider Riders. This argument that Cartman is the least funniest character on the show leads me to believe that some of you watch this sh*t for the wrong reasons, which is fine, just don't be surprised that people argue with you and point out the obvious. The show is outrageous, controversial, topical, hysterical, and if you haven't realized in the past 11 seasons, f*cking wrong on many levels (jesus getting killed (2x)). This isn't a politically correct show, this is South Park. Just Enjoy.


1- Cartman being the funniest character is a personal opinion, just like not liking him is personal opinion. If you can't handle opinions and decide that only those that agree with you are right, then I suggest you bone up on your buddy Hitler.

2- I do think Cartman is funny and I do like the confrontational nature of the show. But, guess what? The show was becoming, "What will cartman do THIS week!"

3- You said:
The show is outrageous, controversial, topical, hysterical, and if you haven't realized in the past 11 seasons, f*cking wrong on many levels (jesus getting killed (2x)). This isn't a politically correct show, this is South Park. Just enjoy.

Which has nothing to do with Cartman and problems with him.



1. Not only is finding humor in something a personal opinion, it's also the personal opinion of the creators of the show that you claim to be a fan of. If you don't get "their" humor lately, then lately you haven't been getting the show, it's really that simple. If your tired of Cartman getting too many shows evolving around him, then guess what? You know longer get the show. I can't make it any more simple for you.

2. M&T obviously think that Cartman is the funniest character on the show because that's why we have a lot of Cartman episodes. You don't like it, keep bitching about it and keep claiming to be a South Park fan. I'm sure M&T listen to all of their so called "fans" who bitch about the show. Quess what? Majority of South Park fans get it, just a few who dedicate themselves on this board obviously don't.

3. The excuses that many of you express why Cartman isn't funny or he's your least favorite character falls into the same catagory that describes South Park. Like South Park, Cartman is outrageous, controversail, topical, hysterical and politically inccorect. Lately, he's a bigger character then the other three because he's over the top and wrong on many, many levels.

..and I want to mention one thing before I go. Being a fan doesn't mean you have to be a sheep. I agree with many of you who say that, but you can't also talk out of the other side of your mouth and claim to be a fan only to be hypersensitive on every episode. It's not fair to put something on a pedistal only to expect it to live up to your expectations and when it doesn't, you criticize it. I'm not just talking about one episode per run, it's every episode with some of you people.


1- Oh, so you shall go the, "Well, they think it is funny so therefore it must be funny, and you must like it or not be a fan." route? Okay, what if they did an episode where all they did was show the South Park sign for 22 minutes. Funny to them, right? In that vein, if you didn't like it, then you can't be a fan, right?

2- #1101: Funny episode, Cartman used correctly.
#1102: Funny episode, Cartman used well as both predator and prey.
#1103- Okay episode, Cartman okay.
#1104: Good episode, Cartman okay at best, only one or two scenes really needed him to be the main character.
#1105: Good episode, Cartman not involved.
#1106: Bad episode, Cartman used well while in it.
#1107: Great episode, Cartman used well.

Now, see the pattern? The episodes that I like involving Cartman are ones where he has a role within a group. The group dynamic makes him funnier- Cartman just being an assh*le isn't funny.

3- Just because fans like you get it doesn't mean anything. You can get why that Cho guy blew away all those poor kids at VTech, doesn't mean you're okay with it. It can still be stupid and unfunny, even if you get it.

4- Cartman, when used correctly, can be very funny. Fighting the midget as a sub-plot and yelling race war in #1101? Very funny, as he got to be racist, insensitive, and an assh*le, yet the plot didn't revolve around him. #1104 was a good episode purely because I like 24, but except for like two scenes and the base reason Cartman had for starting the damned parody, nothing in that show was Cartman-based. That episode could just as well have been written for any other character and have been just as funny.

5- You are an absolutist, Killa.
That's how it's down here on the farm!
Killahertz9
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:46 pm

Postby Killahertz9 » Tue May 08, 2007 7:37 pm

ShaneHaughey wrote:
Killahertz9 wrote:
ShaneHaughey wrote:
Killahertz9 wrote:Wow, some of you keep those blinder shields on even when you sleep don't you?

Cartman is the funniest character on the show. Period. Even Matt and Trey have said that, so being the sheep that I am, I happen to agree with them. If you are looking for nonconfrontational characters to like on the show, may I suggest Spider Riders. This argument that Cartman is the least funniest character on the show leads me to believe that some of you watch this sh*t for the wrong reasons, which is fine, just don't be surprised that people argue with you and point out the obvious. The show is outrageous, controversial, topical, hysterical, and if you haven't realized in the past 11 seasons, f*cking wrong on many levels (jesus getting killed (2x)). This isn't a politically correct show, this is South Park. Just Enjoy.


1- Cartman being the funniest character is a personal opinion, just like not liking him is personal opinion. If you can't handle opinions and decide that only those that agree with you are right, then I suggest you bone up on your buddy Hitler.

2- I do think Cartman is funny and I do like the confrontational nature of the show. But, guess what? The show was becoming, "What will cartman do THIS week!"

3- You said:
The show is outrageous, controversial, topical, hysterical, and if you haven't realized in the past 11 seasons, f*cking wrong on many levels (jesus getting killed (2x)). This isn't a politically correct show, this is South Park. Just enjoy.

Which has nothing to do with Cartman and problems with him.



1. Not only is finding humor in something a personal opinion, it's also the personal opinion of the creators of the show that you claim to be a fan of. If you don't get "their" humor lately, then lately you haven't been getting the show, it's really that simple. If your tired of Cartman getting too many shows evolving around him, then guess what? You know longer get the show. I can't make it any more simple for you.

2. M&T obviously think that Cartman is the funniest character on the show because that's why we have a lot of Cartman episodes. You don't like it, keep bitching about it and keep claiming to be a South Park fan. I'm sure M&T listen to all of their so called "fans" who bitch about the show. Quess what? Majority of South Park fans get it, just a few who dedicate themselves on this board obviously don't.

3. The excuses that many of you express why Cartman isn't funny or he's your least favorite character falls into the same catagory that describes South Park. Like South Park, Cartman is outrageous, controversail, topical, hysterical and politically inccorect. Lately, he's a bigger character then the other three because he's over the top and wrong on many, many levels.

..and I want to mention one thing before I go. Being a fan doesn't mean you have to be a sheep. I agree with many of you who say that, but you can't also talk out of the other side of your mouth and claim to be a fan only to be hypersensitive on every episode. It's not fair to put something on a pedistal only to expect it to live up to your expectations and when it doesn't, you criticize it. I'm not just talking about one episode per run, it's every episode with some of you people.


1- Oh, so you shall go the, "Well, they think it is funny so therefore it must be funny, and you must like it or not be a fan." route? Okay, what if they did an episode where all they did was show the South Park sign for 22 minutes. Funny to them, right? In that vein, if you didn't like it, then you can't be a fan, right?

2- #1101: Funny episode, Cartman used correctly.
#1102: Funny episode, Cartman used well as both predator and prey.
#1103- Okay episode, Cartman okay.
#1104: Good episode, Cartman okay at best, only one or two scenes really needed him to be the main character.
#1105: Good episode, Cartman not involved.
#1106: Bad episode, Cartman used well while in it.
#1107: Great episode, Cartman used well.

Now, see the pattern? The episodes that I like involving Cartman are ones where he has a role within a group. The group dynamic makes him funnier- Cartman just being an assh*le isn't funny.

3- Just because fans like you get it doesn't mean anything. You can get why that Cho guy blew away all those poor kids at VTech, doesn't mean you're okay with it. It can still be stupid and unfunny, even if you get it.

4- Cartman, when used correctly, can be very funny. Fighting the midget as a sub-plot and yelling race war in #1101? Very funny, as he got to be racist, insensitive, and an assh*le, yet the plot didn't revolve around him. #1104 was a good episode purely because I like 24, but except for like two scenes and the base reason Cartman had for starting the damned parody, nothing in that show was Cartman-based. That episode could just as well have been written for any other character and have been just as funny.

5- You are an absolutist, Killa.


hahahahahahaha! The logic here is outstanding.
ShaneHaughey wrote:1- Oh, so you shall go the, "Well, they think it is funny so therefore it must be funny, and you must like it or not be a fan." route? Okay, what if they did an episode where all they did was show the South Park sign for 22 minutes. Funny to them, right? In that vein, if you didn't like it, then you can't be a fan, right?


I'm starting to see where you are coming from. The fact that I believe T&M would never just show the South Park sign for 22 minutes is because I give them much more credit than you do. Or, maybe it's because I don't think it's funny and maybe because I get their humor. To even suggest a hypothetical example such as that just shows that you are desperately stretching. It's true that I don't think everything they do is funny, however, I don't criticize it for not living up to my expectations. Nor do I put down any character that I don't agree with.

ShaneHaughey wrote:2- #1101: Funny episode, Cartman used correctly.
#1102: Funny episode, Cartman used well as both predator and prey.
#1103- Okay episode, Cartman okay.
#1104: Good episode, Cartman okay at best, only one or two scenes really needed him to be the main character.
#1105: Good episode, Cartman not involved.
#1106: Bad episode, Cartman used well while in it.
#1107: Great episode, Cartman used well.

Now, see the pattern? The episodes that I like involving Cartman are ones where he has a role within a group. The group dynamic makes him funnier- Cartman just being an assh*le isn't funny.


I understand thats your opinion. M&T obviously don't see it like that or they would do exactly what you have suggested. Cartman being an assh*le is funny to most people who watch South Park. It's pretty obvious that the majority agree with them and they continue to make episodes that you (the minority) don't like.

ShaneHaughey wrote:3- Just because fans like you get it doesn't mean anything. You can get why that Cho guy blew away all those poor kids at VTech, doesn't mean you're okay with it. It can still be stupid and unfunny, even if you get it.


Man, you are really stretching here. South Park and Cho? WoW. I'm not even gonna go there. Let me first say that "fans like me who get it" speaks miles compared to those "fans" who put something on a pedistal only to criticize it when it fails to meet their expectation. You fail to understand that fans like me who understand what the artists were trying to achieve when they created their work without disecting it is who they are targeting their work towards. You think they make shows so that people can bitch about what they liked and didn't like? They think it's funny so they make an episode hoping others will find if funny. I DO and I'm not the minority on this.

ShaneHaughey wrote:4- Cartman, when used correctly, can be very funny. Fighting the midget as a sub-plot and yelling race war in #1101? Very funny, as he got to be racist, insensitive, and an assh*le, yet the plot didn't revolve around him. #1104 was a good episode purely because I like 24, but except for like two scenes and the base reason Cartman had for starting the damned parody, nothing in that show was Cartman-based. That episode could just as well have been written for any other character and have been just as funny.


Again, your opinion of what role Cartman should play on South Park and how he's not funny to you. Keep disecting the show, keep criticizing it when it doesn't live up to your expectations. I can understand if this was a complex sitcom like Lost or Battlestar Galactica, but it's South Park, it's suppost to be silly and funny and guess what? I get it.

ShaneHaughey wrote:5- You are an absolutist, Killa.


You are a critic and a snob, Shane.


..and just so this doesn't get out of hand. I do want to say I respect your opinion and differences on this topic. In no way do I have any ill will towards you or anybody else that my comments fall into that catagory. Thank You.
Image

Return to “Character Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests