Stan Vs. Kyle

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CaptainCameron
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Re: Stan Vs. Kyle

Postby CaptainCameron » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:02 am

jewish pride wrote:first, dude all the ones who say that stan has pent up anger, where on earth do you get that from?? just because he doesnt get angry as often as kyle doesnt mean he has it all piled up inside of him, some ppl are just more naturally peacefull and not prone to anger, doesnt mean he's gonna burst out in any second, he certainly doesnt look as though he has pent up anger

second, to the ppl who just posted to say they shouldnt fight cause they're best friends: duh! its just a fun thread dude, doesnt mean we want them to fight, but its fun to wonder

third, i think they would be pretty equal in a fight, thats what it seemed to me in prehistoric man and in general really
but if i had to choose one i would say kyle, he seems more used to fights, even if only with cartman who's a pussy he still is obviously more used to punching, and he also has a temper to reckon with, he can get really really mad, and he has a strong will and he seems to be of those ppl who wont give up


We get this through analysis of the characters. Stan has been shown to be quite annoyed and angered by the world, yet doesn't blow up as often as Kyle. Anger and rage do not, contrary to popular belief, just vanish especially at that age. They build up and when they flow out it can be quite disturbing. We also never said it would happen at any second. You are confusing pent up anger with a loose cannon. Stan won't snap over sour milk, but if pushed hard enough he will. There are also other things to a fight other than punching- hell, I've been in a few fights and can count on one finger how many times punches have been thrown. Pens and pencils are used, choking is used, breaking of bones is common in an all out fight.

@Savior- Assume for future reference that both kids are going full tilt.
1- Being quick to anger and fight does not a good fighter make. Personal experience: I went to a new school my second year of high school- 2005 here on the boards. I won't bore you with every little detail, but this one kid who was normally okay was known to very quickly anger and fight over certain issues almost at random and on other days seemed to be fine with it. Well, let us say that after a while of joking about a certain subject and him giving no indication that he was offended(he played along), one day he snapped when I made a joke and we fought. He had been suspended twice that year and had gotten in a few more fights off school grounds- and had more or less won them all.
This fight ended in about six seconds, as I had vastly superior upper body strength. I grappled him, knocked him down, took away his ability to use his arms, and chocked him until I was dragged off. He had trouble breathing and walked away wobbling due to lack of oxygen.
And mind you, I wasn't even angry. If I was, I would have broken his ribs, broken his hands, broken his jaw, broke his nose, and generally f*cked him up.

Relation to this topic: Being quick to fight and anger doesn't have any bearing on your ability as a fighter, especially if all you fight are powderpuffs like Cartman.

2- Remember when Cartman and Kyle fought and cartman said time out or stop or I give up or something of that sort in cartoon wars p2? Well, what did Kyle do? he took the bait. Kyle may fight dirty, but he is vulnerable to it as well and this was his sworn enemy who he should never trust. If Stan believes fighting dirty will end a fight quickly, then he will do what anyone with a brain would do- he'd fight dirty.


I think Stan would win. Would it be easy? No. But I think the probability of Stan winning is higher than Kyle's.
superiorsavior
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Re: Stan Vs. Kyle

Postby superiorsavior » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:48 am

Being quick to anger and fight does not a good fighter make

True, but it doesn't make you a bad fighter either. I think my conscesion here feeds through to the conclusion that neither really has any streangth over the other.

If Stan believes fighting dirty will end a fight quickly, then he will do what anyone with a brain would do- he'd fight dirty.

Evidence plz? I don't think there's any evidence for antything that makes the probability of one kid winning in a general situation higher than the other. Both are fairly evenly matched. Nothing really indicates their streangths, they both seem strong. This is just a "what charactar do you prefer" thread, because people just pick their favourite and forget who'd actually poon in a fight, because that point is so impossible to proove from the show. The only fight they had was a draw!
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CaptainCameron
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Re: Stan Vs. Kyle

Postby CaptainCameron » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:56 am

superiorsavior wrote:
Being quick to anger and fight does not a good fighter make

True, but it doesn't make you a bad fighter either. I think my conscesion here feeds through to the conclusion that neither really has any streangth over the other.

If Stan believes fighting dirty will end a fight quickly, then he will do what anyone with a brain would do- he'd fight dirty.

Evidence plz? I don't think there's any evidence for antything that makes the probability of one kid winning in a general situation higher than the other. Both are fairly evenly matched. Nothing really indicates their streangths, they both seem strong. This is just a "what charactar do you prefer" thread, because people just pick their favourite and forget who'd actually poon in a fight, because that point is so impossible to proove from the show. The only fight they had was a draw!

1- Never said it makes you a bad fighter, but people are using it as a source of ability for Kyle.
2- Proof is common sense. Anyone who wouldn't fight dirty to win a fight if you are going full tilt is a moron. Since we can infer from the events of the show that Stan is not a moron, we can postulate with much certainty that in a full-on fight he would be willing to fight dirty.
3- Beyond that, I do agree that this is more of a prefer thread.:P
jewish pride
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Re: Stan Vs. Kyle

Postby jewish pride » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:44 am

We get this through analysis of the characters. Stan has been shown to be quite annoyed and angered by the world, yet doesn't blow up as often as Kyle. Anger and rage do not, contrary to popular belief, just vanish especially at that age. They build up and when they flow out it can be quite disturbing. We also never said it would happen at any second. You are confusing pent up anger with a loose cannon. Stan won't snap over sour milk, but if pushed hard enough he will. There are also other things to a fight other than punching- hell, I've been in a few fights and can count on one finger how many times punches have been thrown. Pens and pencils are used, choking is used, breaking of bones is common in an all out fight.


he seems annoyed often but he rarely seems angry if you ask me, he doesnt have that much anger cause for example he doesnt have to put up with cartman half as much as kyle does
i seriously dont see him having pent up anger, if he does have it then he hides it very well cause im not seeing it

1- Being quick to anger and fight does not a good fighter make. (...)
And mind you, I wasn't even angry. If I was, I would have broken his ribs, broken his hands, broken his jaw, broke his nose, and generally f*cked him up.


a lot of anger doesnt just guarantee your success but i assure you that it helps a lot, im living proof of it
i can see a lot of kyle in me and one of those things is his quick temper, when i was his age i always got into fights with older kids and my temper and will was always one of the definite keys for my success
when you get mad enough, like really really mad, you loose control of yourself and dont hold back at all, that can be pretty dangerous, but of course it doesnt give you super powers, if you are lame then anger isnt gonna do miracles

2- Remember when Cartman and Kyle fought and cartman said time out or stop or I give up or something of that sort in cartoon wars p2? Well, what did Kyle do? he took the bait. Kyle may fight dirty, but he is vulnerable to it as well and this was his sworn enemy who he should never trust. If Stan believes fighting dirty will end a fight quickly, then he will do what anyone with a brain would do- he'd fight dirty.


dude, i thought you liked stan!
i evidently have stan in higher esteem than you even if i find him boring cause i dont think he would ever fight dirty, neither would kyle, they are both better than that

fighting dirty is what someone who has no dignity would do, it has nothing to do with brains in my opinion, kyle is very smart but he chooses to fight with dignity, he wouldnt be my favourite otherwise

i still think kyle would win
CaptainCameron
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Re: Stan Vs. Kyle

Postby CaptainCameron » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:09 pm

jewish pride wrote:
We get this through analysis of the characters. Stan has been shown to be quite annoyed and angered by the world, yet doesn't blow up as often as Kyle. Anger and rage do not, contrary to popular belief, just vanish especially at that age. They build up and when they flow out it can be quite disturbing. We also never said it would happen at any second. You are confusing pent up anger with a loose cannon. Stan won't snap over sour milk, but if pushed hard enough he will. There are also other things to a fight other than punching- hell, I've been in a few fights and can count on one finger how many times punches have been thrown. Pens and pencils are used, choking is used, breaking of bones is common in an all out fight.


he seems annoyed often but he rarely seems angry if you ask me, he doesnt have that much anger cause for example he doesnt have to put up with cartman half as much as kyle does
i seriously dont see him having pent up anger, if he does have it then he hides it very well cause im not seeing it

1- Being quick to anger and fight does not a good fighter make. (...)
And mind you, I wasn't even angry. If I was, I would have broken his ribs, broken his hands, broken his jaw, broke his nose, and generally f*cked him up.


a lot of anger doesnt just guarantee your success but i assure you that it helps a lot, im living proof of it
i can see a lot of kyle in me and one of those things is his quick temper, when i was his age i always got into fights with older kids and my temper and will was always one of the definite keys for my success
when you get mad enough, like really really mad, you loose control of yourself and dont hold back at all, that can be pretty dangerous, but of course it doesnt give you super powers, if you are lame then anger isnt gonna do miracles

2- Remember when Cartman and Kyle fought and cartman said time out or stop or I give up or something of that sort in cartoon wars p2? Well, what did Kyle do? he took the bait. Kyle may fight dirty, but he is vulnerable to it as well and this was his sworn enemy who he should never trust. If Stan believes fighting dirty will end a fight quickly, then he will do what anyone with a brain would do- he'd fight dirty.


dude, i thought you liked stan!
i evidently have stan in higher esteem than you even if i find him boring cause i dont think he would ever fight dirty, neither would kyle, they are both better than that

fighting dirty is what someone who has no dignity would do, it has nothing to do with brains in my opinion, kyle is very smart but he chooses to fight with dignity, he wouldnt be my favourite otherwise

i still think kyle would win

1- Annoyance is the start of anger. We haven't seen him pushed hard enough to become physically violent. If that happens, logic dictates that since he would have more pent up anger that using his personality when not angered as proof that he isn't capable of it is insanity. Also, the thing with pent up anger is that you don't see it until it either overlows or is triggered. So yeah, you wouldn't see it.

2- You kind of made my point:
"a lot of anger doesnt just guarantee your success but i assure you that it helps a lot, im living proof of it
i can see a lot of kyle in me and one of those things is his quick temper, when i was his age i always got into fights with older kids and my temper and will was always one of the definite keys for my success."
...Exactly. Stan has pent up anger. If unleashed, the anger he has would be far more than what you had. So, thanks for the backup.
I know what your point here is: Kyle gets angry often, so he can fight well!
Yes, I know. No one is saying that Kyle is a pussy who would get creamed by Stan in two seconds. But remember that your point goes both ways- if Kyle's anger helps him, so will Stan's anger. Since Stan ha spent-up anger, if it is unleashed duirng the fight it gives him a serious edge.
"but of course it doesnt give you super powers, if you are lame then anger isnt gonna do miracles"
Well, the biggest problem with the lame comment is that it has nothing to do with your ability to get mad or fight. At all. If you push practically anyone far enough, they can fight with much fury. Oh, and beating Kyle wouldn't require a miracle at all for Stan. :wink:
You also seem to have missed the point of the fight I talked about: If I had been angry, if I had pent-up anger unleashing itself, that guy would have been toasted, roasted, and poached. Instead, he had to just deal with a lack of oxygen.

3- Maybe in your fights everyone stepped into a ring and there were rules, but this is about a full tilt, balls to the wall, no mercy fight. In that fight, the people that fight with dignity lose unless they outclass their foe in such a way as to make it laughable. If you're knocked to the ground in a sandy/dirt area and your hand grasps a handful of said sand/dirt and you don't toss it into the eyes of your foe, then you're dumb. If you and your foe are wrestling and you can't get the advantage yet you haven't kneed your foe in the crotch, you deserve to lose badly. If you have the chance to smash your foe's head into a locker to end the fight but choose to fight with dignity and let him get back up, you deserve to lose and you are stupid. It isn't about right, wrong, dignity, or high esteem. It is a matter of survival and victory, and remember who gets to write history- the victor. If Stan beats Kyle using dirty tactics, no one would care that he used dirty tactics- they'd just be laughing at Kyle for getting his ass kicked.
jewish pride
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Re: Stan Vs. Kyle

Postby jewish pride » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:37 pm

1- Annoyance is the start of anger. We haven't seen him pushed hard enough to become physically violent. If that happens, logic dictates that since he would have more pent up anger that using his personality when not angered as proof that he isn't capable of it is insanity. Also, the thing with pent up anger is that you don't see it until it either overlows or is triggered. So yeah, you wouldn't see it.


annoyance isnt necesarely the start of anger, they are different states of feelings, too much annoyance can turn into anger though, but stan doesnt seem annoyed all the time, just sometimes and it doesnt seem to get close enough to anger

as i already said, not everyone is just easily angered or has pent up anger inside of them, some ppl are just more peaceful and less prone to anger than others
i think stan is just that kind of ppl that rarely gets angry and as i said about a hundred times already, i dont recall seeing pent up anger in him, he seems quite peaceful if you ask me

2- You kind of made my point:
(...)
...Exactly. Stan has pent up anger. If unleashed, the anger he has would be far more than what you had. So, thanks for the backup.


ok this is getting really tiring, just tell me in what episodes does stan show to have pent up anger cause i have obviously missed them

I know what your point here is: Kyle gets angry often, so he can fight well!
Yes, I know. No one is saying that Kyle is a pussy who would get creamed by Stan in two seconds. But remember that your point goes both ways- if Kyle's anger helps him, so will Stan's anger. Since Stan ha spent-up anger, if it is unleashed duirng the fight it gives him a serious edge.


dude anyone who says kyle's a pussy obviously hasnt seen two episodes of the show
and stan isnt that prone to anger, therefore less likely to loose himself to rage like kyle would do
btw, i dont consider this to be a good thing, actually i think its one of kyle's worst deffects, losing himself to anger like that

"but of course it doesnt give you super powers, if you are lame then anger isnt gonna do miracles"
Well, the biggest problem with the lame comment is that it has nothing to do with your ability to get mad or fight. At all. If you push practically anyone far enough, they can fight with much fury. Oh, and beating Kyle wouldn't require a miracle at all for Stan.


i meant lame at fighting in case you didnt get that
someone lame at fighting can of course get better with fury, but if they fight with somone way better than themselves then it might be no use at all
see im a skinny girl, if i got really really mad i might have a chance with guy who really knows how to fight, but the odds are still against me, its more probable that im gonna get my ass kicked

and beating Kyle wouldn't require a miracle for Stan, it would require about a thousand of them :P

You also seem to have missed the point of the fight I talked about: If I had been angry, if I had pent-up anger unleashing itself, that guy would have been toasted, roasted, and poached. Instead, he had to just deal with a lack of oxygen.


but you werent and thats the point
i vote for kyle because he's the most bound to loose it, stan and kyle seem about equals fighting, but kyle is always going to be more prone to anger than stan and that gives him an advantage imo

and about the last comment, i cant possibly argue you into believing in things like dignity and honour, if you have no respect in stuff like that and think playing dirty is just as valid as everything else, then there is no point in arguing
you dont believe in dignity, honour and fairness, but i strongly believe that they are important and i think that so does stan, in prehistoric ice men he didnt play dirty once
CaptainCameron
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Re: Stan Vs. Kyle

Postby CaptainCameron » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:13 pm

jewish pride wrote:
1- Annoyance is the start of anger. We haven't seen him pushed hard enough to become physically violent. If that happens, logic dictates that since he would have more pent up anger that using his personality when not angered as proof that he isn't capable of it is insanity. Also, the thing with pent up anger is that you don't see it until it either overlows or is triggered. So yeah, you wouldn't see it.


annoyance isnt necesarely the start of anger, they are different states of feelings, too much annoyance can turn into anger though, but stan doesnt seem annoyed all the time, just sometimes and it doesnt seem to get close enough to anger

as i already said, not everyone is just easily angered or has pent up anger inside of them, some ppl are just more peaceful and less prone to anger than others
i think stan is just that kind of ppl that rarely gets angry and as i said about a hundred times already, i dont recall seeing pent up anger in him, he seems quite peaceful if you ask me

2- You kind of made my point:
(...)
...Exactly. Stan has pent up anger. If unleashed, the anger he has would be far more than what you had. So, thanks for the backup.


ok this is getting really tiring, just tell me in what episodes does stan show to have pent up anger cause i have obviously missed them

I know what your point here is: Kyle gets angry often, so he can fight well!
Yes, I know. No one is saying that Kyle is a pussy who would get creamed by Stan in two seconds. But remember that your point goes both ways- if Kyle's anger helps him, so will Stan's anger. Since Stan ha spent-up anger, if it is unleashed duirng the fight it gives him a serious edge.


dude anyone who says kyle's a pussy obviously hasnt seen two episodes of the show
and stan isnt that prone to anger, therefore less likely to loose himself to rage like kyle would do
btw, i dont consider this to be a good thing, actually i think its one of kyle's worst deffects, losing himself to anger like that

"but of course it doesnt give you super powers, if you are lame then anger isnt gonna do miracles"
Well, the biggest problem with the lame comment is that it has nothing to do with your ability to get mad or fight. At all. If you push practically anyone far enough, they can fight with much fury. Oh, and beating Kyle wouldn't require a miracle at all for Stan.


i meant lame at fighting in case you didnt get that
someone lame at fighting can of course get better with fury, but if they fight with somone way better than themselves then it might be no use at all
see im a skinny girl, if i got really really mad i might have a chance with guy who really knows how to fight, but the odds are still against me, its more probable that im gonna get my ass kicked

and beating Kyle wouldn't require a miracle for Stan, it would require about a thousand of them :P

You also seem to have missed the point of the fight I talked about: If I had been angry, if I had pent-up anger unleashing itself, that guy would have been toasted, roasted, and poached. Instead, he had to just deal with a lack of oxygen.


but you werent and thats the point
i vote for kyle because he's the most bound to loose it, stan and kyle seem about equals fighting, but kyle is always going to be more prone to anger than stan and that gives him an advantage imo

and about the last comment, i cant possibly argue you into believing in things like dignity and honour, if you have no respect in stuff like that and think playing dirty is just as valid as everything else, then there is no point in arguing
you dont believe in dignity, honour and fairness, but i strongly believe that they are important and i think that so does stan, in prehistoric ice men he didnt play dirty once


I don't think you're following what I'm saying very well, so let me tell you from what angle I am coming from:

This fight between the two is in no way like PIM's pussy fight between the two in which they got dirty and were out of breath. This entire scenario is predicated on the two going full tilt, physically, mentally, and emotionally. Nothing is being left on the table, both are dead set on winning. Since they are going full tilt, things like honor, decency, fairness(which in any fight, even a small fight, is useless and will do more harm than good.) have to be left by the wayside.

Why? Because you are handicapping yourself, and you never handicap in a really serious fight. This isn't a storybook fight, this isn't a sanctioned fight. This is two best friends who are fighting, and in this scenario nothing is being left on the table. No one is holding back. Every facet will come into play: Physical prowess, emotions, situational awareness, etc. Since this is a full-tilt fight with nothing being left on the table, that means every ounce of fury and anger is being used, they aren't pulling any punches, and they are on the look out for advantages.

Now, as I said earlier, if Stan doesn't unleash his anger during the fight then I don't care to argue aboyut the fight. Why? Because unless that happens, you don't see someone at their best in terms of fighting. If he does, however, then this is how I see it coming down:

Physical- We know both boys are fit. Stan will likely have superior upper body strength, Kyle will likely have superior lower body strength. Considering that kicks hardly come into play during fights unless you fight dirty(In which the power of the attacks don't really matter as the targets are easily hurt anyway.) Stan has the advantage. Also, in, "Bebe's Boobs Destroy Society", Stan hits at least one kid hard enough to send him flying into a group of two kids and knock them down. That takes strength.

Emotionally- If Stan and Kyle go full tilt, then about the only way I think Kyle has the advantage here is if there are circumstances that add to it. (Something else that he can't take out on cartman would have to be happening/on his mind.) If that is not the case, advantage Stan because everybody has pent-up anger who has, in anyway, showed the ability to have negative emotions and who also haven't shown excess anger.

Situational Awareness- In "Bebe's Boobs Destroy Society", Stan uses a weapon that he found. The fight had been going on fora tiny bit- everyone had an equal shot at any of the other items in the room to use as weapons. Stan was the only one with the wherewithall to use anything there as a weapon. Also, Kyle was caught off-guard by Cartman in CWP2 to such a degree that it really shows a lack of awareness.

Also, there is no evidence that Stan is lame at fighting. At all. What evidence from what fights we do have point to him being quite good, Kyle has fought Powderpuff Cartman and therefore it doesn't mean much. I think that skill wise, they're both at the same level. Kyle certainly doesn't have crazy fighting skills.

And you still don't seem to get the point of the fight- The kid I fought? He WAS the type that lost his temper often and got into fights more often than I. The point of that fight is that just because you are more prone to anger does not mean you can win a fight on the basis of past episodes of anger. It is about what you can bring to the table now- and even when I wasn't angry, i could beat him silly. Now, if we had both gone full tilt like this fight is calling for, he would have been destroyed. Now, like I said, I don't think Kyle would be destroyed by Stan. The fight would be good.

Honor and all that stuff is fine...if you aren't in a fight where the other party is giving it their all in every way. However, if they give one-hundred percent then you need to, and sadly, honor and that crap gets in the way.

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