*2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

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MichaelTanzerCanada
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby MichaelTanzerCanada » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:57 pm

SouthAl93 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:18 pm
Big-Will wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:35 am
SouthAl93 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:18 am
What did I just say about talking about how they need to breakup?
They need to break up. :lol: People on other boards are saying their storyline is dragging the show down, and you'll be reading the same thing here. It will be over by the time the season ends. And Trey failed to deliver on the shocking thing that would make people riot for the show to end right now.

And Heidi will live just fine without Fatass.
Maybe Matt and Trey will just have to go back to having Cartman treat Heidi with respect again like in last season while still being a dick to everyone else.
Indeed at all...They SHOULD go back to having him treating Heidi with respect again like in Season 20...But you're absolutely right, SouthAl93!
Heiman forever! Favourite OTP since Season 20! <3
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Big-Will » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:46 pm

MichaelTanzerCanada wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:57 pm
SouthAl93 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:18 pm
Maybe Matt and Trey will just have to go back to having Cartman treat Heidi with respect again like in last season while still being a dick to everyone else.
Indeed at all...They SHOULD go back to having him treating Heidi with respect again like in Season 20...But you're absolutely right, SouthAl93!
You both realize he only treated her with respect so she wouldn't find his Internet history, right?
Sgt. Sarge wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:03 pm
That's a bit of a stretch, both you and Nwt000 need to realize that there are plenty of fans and regular viewers who enjoy this dynamic. Asking for Heidi to break up but still wanting her to play a significant role doesn't work cause the show will always be focused on the boy. Kyle, Stan, Kenny and Cartman have all had their high points and low points; their wins and loses and that's what helps make the show feel fresh after so many years.
Oh we know. Believe me, we know. Nick has wanted the girls to have a greater presence on the show for years now, and it just hasn't happened. I know plenty of fans and regular viewers enjoy the Heiman dynamic, but there are many more fans and regular viewers who hate it. Now, to use your last comment, Cartman has had some of his best moments with Heidi, but in the process we lost what made him so deliciously evil in Season 5. Now we're left with a boy who's stewing in a relationship he's no longer interested in.
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triplemultiplex
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby triplemultiplex » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:29 am

Chip is very clearly supposed to be Harvey Weinstein. Guys may talk a certain way about women among themselves, but none of them have any intention of imposing themselves upon a woman against their will. If someone does follow up their crude talk with gross action, that is going to be very uncomfortable for anyone who knew that person.

The rest of the allegory falls into place with the other witches thinking everyone will associate them with the one douchebag witch like some guys get all defensive when a famous person turns out to be a serial rapist. But people are smart enough to know not all guys are potential rapists, so calm down fellas. You're not the victim here.

The victim blaming scene with Fatass at the police station; that was deep. They rode a beautiful line between making fun of a sacred cow and injecting an astute observation. The message was, "Yes blaming the victim is wrong, but why is it that we only don't want to appear to blame victims when it comes to just sex crimes?" That logic doesn't generally transfer to other areas of law and order, so something about it is not entirely correct.

Very amusing to have everyone in the witch group stumble around the phrase "witch hunt" even when it would match the rhyme in their own damn song.

The arc with Fatass and Heidi (I refuse to use the portmanteau) seems to be a vehicle for the guys to vent some frustrations about their own relationships. I think that's the reason it has lasted so long despite being so obviously terrible.

Someone should tell President Garrison that international treaties ban nations from placing weapons in space. ;)
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby JVM » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:40 am

I thought this episode was decent enough - good, but not great.

Holiday episodes of the show should be timeless and lighter on continuity, and this one shows. It's a return to the early, sillier and more manic storylines of the earlier episodes. Nobody discusses the fact there's a witch flying around, wreaking havoc and kidnapping childrem - well, they discuss it certainly, but nobody is asking serious questions. This is South Park, it's a weird place, and everyone has sort of accepted these things happen, this stuff is possible and barely worth questioning. Like giant robots, angry celebrities, violent ginger kids, underpants gnomes, anal probes and crab people, this is just the kind of stuff you have to deal with living in a little mountain town. At least there's no traffic.

Unfortunately, the episode lacks character-based humor to jump from there, instead mostly focusing on a couple generalizations - the men all feeling paranoid, the boys all wanting to help, people being scared, and men thinking women are bitchy. Cartman is the only one to carry through a character-based storyline, and Garrison is himself again - but you could shake up how the dads are used, for example, even Stephen, or the boys' lines, and a lot of it would still make enough sense. A little nuance could go a long way, and the closest we have to that is a background bit. (Kyle suggesting the police could help and the other boys shooting it down, which kind of reminds us Kyle is a bit more idealistic Lawful Good compared to the others.)

Does that make it a bad episode? No, not at all. It's nice to see the five boys as a unit even if most of them don't do much in and of themselves, given how many stories for a long while rested on divisions between them. Having a lot of the dads around certainly pulled the episode back a little from being a standard Randy story. We get to see a lot of characters, between the boys' fathers, the kids at the pumpkin patch and school, as well as the Mayor and the Police.

If there is a specific point of satire in this episode, I'm sorry, I've missed it. It's been identified in different outlets in different ways, and there's been a lot of interpretation of it as being about Harvey Weinstein, but the word 'witch hunt' has been offered by Woody Allen as well as the President on recent occasions, so who really knows? The truth is though, I don't think it really matters. I wouldn't call it a fantastic episode, but I'm not sure shoehorning in Woody Allen, Harvey Weinstein, Bob Corker, or Jeff Flake would have improved the storyline.

So overall? An okay episode, a fine episode, not much to complain about, but nothing to write home about.

Now for some more yet less organized side thoughts:

The Dads
We get to open with Gerald Broflovski, Roger Donovan and Stuart McCormick here, which is a bit nice, as two of the three haven't been used much in a while, and the other is making his first appearance as a regular character since his big season. Roger's voice is a little different, but it's nice he hasn't been tossed aside. Ryan Valmer joins them, and his name is reinforced for the first time in over a decade. Randy joins them and mentions a 'Kevin' but we never meet such a character - all of the dads are present are named and accounted for.

Thomas Tucker and Bob/Steve Black carpooled together for some reason, and they seem to have the 'crack' as promised. It's possible one of them is this 'Kevin'.

Oddly enough, while Richard Tweek appears with them moments later, I'm pretty sure we never see him arriving.

So, list of dads present:
- Randy Marsh
- Gerald Broflovski
- Stuart McCormick
- Stephen Stotch
- Ryan Valmer
- Roger Donovan
- Steve Black
- Thomas Tucker
- Richard Tweek
- Chip Duncan

We're told by Randy this is a 'twenty-odd years' tradition, which based on Randy's age, suggests all of these dads knew each other by around post-college. We know elsewhere that Gerald and Stuart are childhood friends and it's been implied Randy and Gerald knew each other in college as well. We narrowly a void a discrepancy here, but it's also interesting because this establishes the main parents in town all knew each other a decade or so before they had any children. It holds up well enough - I mean, the Stotches seem clearly unfamiliar in Seasons 5-6, the Valmers might have moved (even Trey admits in season 5, they were intended as non-locals) and exactly who Randy's closest with seems to vary between Gerald, Stuart and Stephen. There is no discrepancy though - one can simply assume Stephen and Ryan joined later. Easy retcon, if we needed one, which we don't, but I have fun with them!

Then we have Mr. Garrison - a very smart addition. Recent seasons have downplayed it, but Garrison is friendly with the parents, including Randy. "Spontaneous Combustion" shows Garrison as a friend denying he ever knew Randy, and "Jackovasaurs" shows Garrison present with Randy drinking beer watching football, alongside some other dads, Mackey, Chef and Jackov. And of course, when Stan tells his mother in "Chicken Pox" that his teacher is a sick weirdo, Randy confirms that his son is telling the truth. This connection largely disappeared for several seasons until the S19 finale, when Garrison and his campaign end up in the Marsh House, and even that's understated compared to last season, when the two worked together for a few episodes before Garrison was elected.

Who is missing? The two minor examples to mind are Mr. Testaburger, whose been shown as a drinking buddy in two or three episodes, mostly "Insecurity" (and in FBW, is implied to have a drinking problem) and Skeeter, who was more of a rival at first (i.e. "Cripple Fight") but was depicted as a friend and drinking buddy in "More Crap", "Margaritaville", and "Truth and Advertising". The much, much bigger example though is Jimbo and Ned. The latter's basically been discarded from the show for fifteen years, but the former still makes occasional appearances. Jimbo's drank with Randy from the second season all the way to "Medicinal Fried Chicken" (still with Ned) back in s14. He's also his half-brother and a longtime resident of the town. I cannot imagine why he's excluded except to imagine Matt and Trey either forgot he exists or intentionally are trying to phase him out of the show. (Which has been a possibility on my mind for the last five or so years, since his appearances have become aroun Once a Season.)

As for Chip, I dunno what his deal is. I obviously completely understand it wasn't worth making one of the recurring adults' fathers turn into an evil demonic witch, so he makes sense for those purposes, and it's sort of funny to see the other men all play 'oh, he was a douche anyway' but he didn't feel super integrated, and for an important twenty-year tradition, I kind of wish we'd at least gotten a line or two towards his history and non-evil character. Is he someone's dad or just some buddy they used to know? Does he have a job? If none of them like him why is he there? Does/did SOMEONE defend him up to this point? You could've gotten some comedy out of the last two as a bonus.

But he serves his purpose fine. "Wassup bros?" is funny. I'm not criticizing. Just thinking out loud.

On Heiman
So, a little necessary context for my perspective - I was always very interested in the possibility of a Heidi/Cartman relationship, having seen "Follow That Egg!" and "Marjorine" very early in my fandom days. There's a few reasons why I felt this way, but the point being I thought their relationship could prove a positive direction for both characters. I had my own ideas about how and why. So, to clarify, I have a background very supportive towards Heiman and the ideas of characters in relationships.

I still don't like the direction the show has taken with the relationship this season. I tend to find it forgivable in the context of an individual episode, but overall, it's very problematic.

The problem with Trey's writing for the relationship is he relies too much on setting them up alongside typical relationship tropes in sitcoms. There is nothing even mildly clever about jokes about women taking too long to get ready for something, or about men being unreasonably annoyed with discussing feelings. These are tropes that a lot of live-action sitcoms are trying to work away from today because they're just that old and boring. In the last few years, South Park feels like it's just discovering this kind of relationship humor and seems all too eager to throw it in. I think Trey assumes using Cartman or Randy makes it different, but at the end of the day, they're the same ' marriage is awful' jokes that have been fashionable since the fifties. You see the same problems at times with Randy and Sharon as well, but less dramatically.

The thing is, the setup before last season was strong. Heidi had been implied to be a very shallow character in "Marjorine", "Follow That Egg!" and even TSOT, and that could've worked well. Even "Member Berries" features her being the first to openly accuse Cartman onscreen. She didn't have to be a female Cartman, not racist or bigoted or loud or greedy, but just a little selfishness could've done so much to make her an interesting character in contrast to Wendy or the other girls - interesting enough to not only play off her boyfriend, but also to have her own personality capable of leading an episode. Instead, the show has made her more of a typical South Park female, with traditionally feminine interests, sweet and intelligent. There's an implication (via Butters) she might actually be funny, but the show chose to let that be part of Cartman's fantasy instead.

In the context of the twentieth season, when Cartman was being nice to her most of the time, it was a little forgivable because it was easy to say the circumstances of the situation drew them together in a positive way, but by letting Cartman revert while keeping Heidi sweet, it kind of corrupts the relationship by making Cartman seem exploitative towards her at best and shackled to her at worst.

So where do I stand? I mostly stand that Heidi either needs a separate gimmick - being genuinely funny, or have a sadistic streak, or something - or she and Cartman might just need to break up. Playing them like an old married couple who can't stand each other feels like a step backwards, not forwards.

Notes/Trivia
- The Pumpkin Patch has the Cinema and Tweek Bros. Coffee in the background, but the main town strip towards the front end, simultaneously reinforcing and contradicting the maps provided in both games. (I've always taken the maps as approximations anyway myself.)
- The Testaburgers are seen a bit prominently at the Parent-Teacher conferences, and the Stevens can be seen running when the witch is flying around. There are various families at the assembly.
- Our red-haired police chief is 'Detective' here to his subordinate. He's been Detective Harris, Sergeant Harrison Yates, and occasionally, Commissioner (in C&F stories, so assuming it's Batman theme) and once or twice Lou. The show does seem to switch between the first two (even FBW uses both) Trey referred to him as 'Detective Yates' on the S19 commentary. I still try to view 'Harris' as short for Harrison.
- The cop that Yates speaks with, referred to here as 'Rick', is a recolor of the gray-haired Officer Peterson from Seasons 12-19. In the latter season, he was switched to browner hair. If we count them as one character, he's now Rick Peterson... or maybe it's two different cops using a similar design.
- Hansel and Gretel costumes remind me of Raggedy Ann and Raggedy Andy :)
- Mr. Garrison's Twitter avatar in "Put it Down" excluded his glasses, but they're back here, probably to reinforce to viewers that we're really dealing with our familiar Garrison character, whereas in the former episode, he was functioning only as a Trump avatar. This confusion's bled out though, as some commentators believe the show went easy on Trump instead.
- Tom, the man with glasses seen as Kevin from "Summer Sucks"' father, appears as Peter/Leroy Mullen's father here. (Can we go back to Leroy? There's too many Peters...) Should we call him Tom Mullens now? Separate characters? Kind of nice to see an old school background adult back though.
triplemultiplex wrote:The arc with Fatass and Heidi (I refuse to use the portmanteau)
Not my finest work? :P
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Big-Will » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:27 am

JVM wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:40 am
- The cop that Yates speaks with, referred to here as 'Rick', is a recolor of the gray-haired Officer Peterson from Seasons 12-19. In the latter season, he was switched to browner hair. If we count them as one character, he's now Rick Peterson... or maybe it's two different cops using a similar design.
Quite the recolor, making him a younger officer with chestnut hair instead of an older, gray-haired officer. Which alerted me to another change. The badges on the officers' hats have gone from gold or brass to silver. Hell, they're all-new badges.

If Chip was indeed a parent, we might never know who his kid was, now that he's been obliterated.
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Shane McCormick » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:37 pm

I’m going to be honest, I thought this episode was kinda bad. The witch storyline was ok, but I felt for a Halloween episode something with the boys would have been more fun. There is only so many times where you can show Randy as a drunk idiot before it gets really old. And speaking of things getting old, the Cartman/Heidi centered stuff needs to end. This crap dominated last season and is now doing the same this season. And all for a joke on women taking a long time to get ready....haven’t seen that before. The intro was nice and Garrison was actually really funny in this one, but that’s about all I liked in this one.

This episode gets a 4/10.
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby mario88 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:14 pm

I agree, this episode was bad. There is only one thing that I found interesting: many have been saying that heiman is getting boring, but I think the point the episode made is that, for whatever reason, Cartman doesn't seem to be able to leave heidi, to the point that he would rather miss something funny.

And we are talking about Cartman, the kid who closed butters in the bunker so that he could go to casa Bonita in his place.
He is the record!
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Joe Strummer » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:08 pm

mario88 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:51 am
Was there a political undertone here that I maybe missed? Cause otherwise this episode doesn't make sense to me
Yeah it's the satellites.

I can't believe how much you guys focus on cartoon relationships. SP's strength has always been in the joke writing, the Terry Gilliam like animation, and the social commentary. But all these nerds are pissed off cause they can't beat off to it like their animes.
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby kingmob » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:15 pm

The victim blaming joke had to be my favorite.
Stanluv25
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Stanluv25 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:20 pm

It had some good parts and some meh parts. I did like the overall feel of the episode, it felt like your good ol' silly SP shenanigans with something crazy happening and everyone in a panic. But I do wish the boys actually did more to stop the witch. I liked how the witch came to be- from reading out of an old spell book. Simple but silly, like old SP. The Cartman/Heidi thing needs to end! It was never funny, cute, or interesting to me. How many times do they have to show Cartman annoyed with her but never actually breaking up with her? It's getting old, just break them up! I also didn't get the whole 'cast a spell on the wives' bit the men were talking about. It didn't look as if the wives had any curses placed on them, they were just angry at what their husbands were doing. It was pretty funny how they kept avoiding the term 'witch hunt'. The ending with Garrison was a nice touch. Nothing too heavy on politics, just him acting his normal self and that's that.

Overall, a fun watch but Spookyfish and A Nightmare on Facetime are still my fav. Halloween eps. 7/10
I love: Stan, Butters, Cartman, Sharon.

I ship: Stan/Cartman <3

Stan: MMOOMM!!
Sharon: What is it honey? (gasp!) My baby's killed again!
Haa, I love that line.
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Big-Will » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:22 am

Stanluv25 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:20 pm
I also didn't get the whole 'cast a spell on the wives' bit the men were talking about. It didn't look as if the wives had any curses placed on them, they were just angry at what their husbands were doing.
Well, Randy did say "We put harmless spells on our wives. We were just messing around, it was harmless fun," so I wouldn't expect any real curses falling upon the wives. Or the bosses, for that matter. Only Chip did anything harmful.
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SouthAl93
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby SouthAl93 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:57 am

Big-Will wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:22 am
Stanluv25 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:20 pm
I also didn't get the whole 'cast a spell on the wives' bit the men were talking about. It didn't look as if the wives had any curses placed on them, they were just angry at what their husbands were doing.
Well, Randy did say "We put harmless spells on our wives. We were just messing around, it was harmless fun," so I wouldn't expect any real curses falling upon the wives. Or the bosses, for that matter. Only Chip did anything harmful.
Don't forget that Mr. Garrison was never married unlike our current "real life" president. That is why Mr. Garrison needs to stop looking like Donald Trump.
South Park is way funnier than Family Guy.
Also Mr. Garrison and Donald Trump are two SEPARATE people with completely different career backgrounds.
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby Big-Will » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:11 am

SouthAl93 wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:57 am
Don't forget that Mr. Garrison was never married unlike our current "real life" president. That is why Mr. Garrison needs to stop looking like Donald Trump.
The longer Trump stays in office, the less likely Garrison will stop looking like Trump, so you might as well give up on that. Acting? Well, we see that he's still Garrison when he goes home to visit, which is refreshing. The fans miss Garrison - they like him with a bit of power - but they don't want him to be like Trump any more than you do. :)
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby mario88 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:02 am

Joe Strummer wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:08 pm
mario88 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:51 am
Was there a political undertone here that I maybe missed? Cause otherwise this episode doesn't make sense to me
Yeah it's the satellites.

I can't believe how much you guys focus on cartoon relationships. SP's strength has always been in the joke writing, the Terry Gilliam like animation, and the social commentary. But all these nerds are pissed off cause they can't beat off to it like their animes.
first of all, refrain from talking about people (that you don't know by the way), douche. let's focus on the episode instead. secondly, as for me, i certainly couldn't talk about a joke i didn't get. i follow american (and global) politics and news but i didn't know about this weinstein guy until i looked up on wikipedia. and then i realized how poor the joke in this episode was: it was neither funny, nor insightful. but that's ok, even something as great as south park cannot be at its best every single time.

i personally don't even care that much about the "heiman" thing, i am more interested in what it tells about cartman's twisted personality.
He is the record!
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Re: *2106: Sons A Witches* Post-Air Discussion

Postby SouthAl93 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:34 pm

Big-Will wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:11 am
SouthAl93 wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:57 am
Don't forget that Mr. Garrison was never married unlike our current "real life" president. That is why Mr. Garrison needs to stop looking like Donald Trump.
The longer Trump stays in office, the less likely Garrison will stop looking like Trump, so you might as well give up on that. Acting? Well, we see that he's still Garrison when he goes home to visit, which is refreshing. The fans miss Garrison - they like him with a bit of power - but they don't want him to be like Trump any more than you do. :)
I'll just be praying for our real-life current president Donald Trump to be impeached and removed from office soon so Mr. Garrison can stop looking like him. Also where is the real Donald Trump in South since we already know that he exists in the South Park universe according to "The Entity", establishing that Trump and the Canadian president from "Where My Country Gone" are two separate people?
South Park is way funnier than Family Guy.
Also Mr. Garrison and Donald Trump are two SEPARATE people with completely different career backgrounds.

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