9/11 Fact and Coverup Megathread

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bsbray
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:02 pm

Postby bsbray » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:56 am

MarkyX wrote:
Probably because NYFD, NYPD, civilian medics and others were told ahead of time that WTC7 was going to be coming down.


Thank you for proving that you are just making sh*t up on the fly.

Let me repeat this again: No one but Chief Daniel Nigro gave the order for a collapse zone.


I'm not sure what you're getting at with "order for a collapse zone", but civilian medic Indira Singh reported being told on 9/11 that Building 7 was going to come down, brought down:

What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon after noon, after midday on 9/11, we had to evacuate that because they told us that Building 7 was coming down.

If you had been there, not being able to see very much, just flames everywhere and dark smoke, it is entirely possible… I do believe that they brought Building 7 down because I heard that they were going to bring it down, because it was unstable, because of the collateral damage.

That I don’t know, I can’t attest to the validity of that, all I can attest to is that by noon or one o’clock, they told us we had to move from that triage site, up to Pace University a little further away, because Building 7 was gonna come down, or being brought down.

[Bonnie Faulkner]: Did they actually use the words brought down, and who was it that was telling you this?

[Indira Singh]: The Fire Department, the Fire Department, and they did use the word, we’re gonna have to bring it down. And, for us, there observing the nature of the devastation it made total sense to us that this was indeed a possibility.

Given the subsequent controversy over it, I don’t know. I’m not an engineer, all I know is that was my experience.


The original source is a radio show, and links to that, as well as a transcript, is available here.

Here's a video of someone telling those around him to watch WTC7, that it was going to come down soon.

The building itself exhibited no more damage than any other building affected, and was also one of the most reinforced buildings in the world, a reinforced concrete structure (steel and concrete construction, extremely fire resistant).


I should really stop replying here. No, WTC7 was not a reinforced concrete. It was a steel-frame building like the WTC.


My mistake. The outer curtain wall was masonry, and the floor slabs around the base were reinforced concrete, but digging around FEMA and NIST, they don't show any concrete around the internal support columns. Either way, there was no significant damage to that building, and the most violent thing videotaped coming out of it was just thick, sooty smoke.


That's why it damaged other buildings and "neat little pile" happens to be around 12 stories.


The fact that so much of the mass (nearly all of it) dropped straight down into the footprint does not help your case. And by neat, I was not talking about how tall it was.

]Good ol' false blips. Too bad there is no proof whatsoever of this myth. Let me guess...you sourced it from Crossing the Rubicon, amirite?


That's one source.

Another is the Toronto Star, Dec. 9, 2001 (online version:

In a flash, Operation Northern Vigilance is called off. Any simulated information, what’s known as an ‘inject,’ is purged from the screens.


And another is a former US military Sgt. Lauro Chavez:

So, I was standing in the SCIF (Secure Compartmented Information Facility), which is basically this underground bunker command post for USCENTCOM, when the first plane hit. We were watching the fly patterns of all the planes on the aerospace grid. This contained not only all commercial flights at the time, but all military flights, and fake enemy planes that were supposedly put on there for the exercise. Many of the planes sent to intercept the fake blips were scrambled from Andrews which is an air defense AFB for the East Coast. They were sent across the US and left very few planes to defend the capital. After the first plane hit the tower we were all in disbelief. After the initial shock was over, our questions were what are the odds this could happen for real, during a training exercise thats covering the same scenario? We were all at wits end.


From here. If you want further confirmation you can call up the show and see if they can give you further information to contact him. They apparently had it on that web page, but it was taken down due to "harrassment".

An accident you mean, not a terrorist attack.


So then everyone would have immediately understood that it wasn't part of the drill when they were told a plane was flown into the Pentagon, an hour before a scheduled drill of the same thing at their building? Regardless of what the drill was supposed to have been, I think that would be a little disgruntling, and more than a little coincidental.

However, nobody in the NORAD tapes actually mentions this.


Now I wonder why NORAD wouldn't mention an NRO exercise?

Are you completely sure about that? I don't think many 110 story buildings fall down, so it is very unlikely that they knew exactly what was going to happen.


And I don't think this statement should be used as a blanket response to any true anomaly with the collapses. Steel does not dissolve easily into micron-scale particles. You can drop it at terminal velocity, drop other beams onto steel at terminal velocity. They may dent. I would say that's about it. Not even enough force to cut one.

Marvin Bush's job ended in June 2000.


The reference is to illustrate the connections between top-level officials and other involved parties. I doubt Marvin was the only connection family ties or money could offer (Marvin Bush also had a cousin in the company for example, without extending to business associates). Also, there is nothing to suggest charges could only be placed after he resigned. Even conventional explosives have shelf lives well within range of a little over 1 year.

Not only that, but you just mentioned years, meaning bomb sniffing dogs would've detected them.


Check this out. That's not the only report of these dogs failing at what they do. Not only that, but the type of explosive comes into play. A dog's not going to jump at something it doesn't recognize.

In other words, your response does not necessarily negate anything I have posted. It would only negate it in certain circumstances which you will no doubt pick and choose.

It took 5000 charges to destroy the J.Hudson building. Do the math and you are basically telling me that a bomb sniffing dog can't even find one bomb out of...how many?


Considering you think 0 charges were used, theoretically, it could take as little as 1 charge to "break the camel's back", correct? So then who are you to tell me how many charges would be required? Who are you to even say what type of explosives the military would find most suitable, or even if these are in common practice?

But your argument is that steel doesn't weaken in fires,


No, it isn't.

Steel weakens, stop overestimating it.


Steel weakens when thoroughly heated to certain temperatures, losing a max of about half its strength, which occurs at 600 C, and which you will find (tests done by NIST and British Steel) is about the max temperature steel will reach when buried in combustibles that are all ignited at the same time and allowed to release all of their energy in a relatively short amount of time. It also makes the steel glow a dull red in broad daylight.

A source:
>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C


About time, but still very questionable because they didn't even go forward with this. Only one source and no one else in the world takes about or follows up on it?


It was also reported by the Washington Post, Sept. 27, 2001. This is referenced at the Cooperative Research site here.

An excerpt, as provided here:

Officials at an instant-messaging firm Odigo confirmed today that two employees received text messages warning of an attack on the World Trade Center two hours before terrorists crashed planes into the New York landmarks.

Citing a pending investigation by law enforcement, the company declined to reveal the exact contents of the message or to identify the sender.

But Alex Diamandis, vice president of sales and marketing, confirmed that workers in Odigo's research and development and international sales office in Israel received a warning from another Odigo user approximately two hours prior to the first attack.



Yes, let's destroy the section of our government that enforces the policy of invasion. Does that really make sense?


I did not draft the document. I also do not think a few soldier deaths much concern them. Remember that this is the same organization that has performed fatal studies on its own soldiers for research.
OnagiPowa
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:04 am

Postby OnagiPowa » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:59 am

So you believe in the Free Mason's too? Dude!!!


I think you’re a little old to be using Dude, but whatever :wink:

Here’s a link to the “fictional” official website to the Masonic lodge in Washington D.C

http://www.dcgrandlodge.org/

Here’s a link to famous Freemasons, many of them US Presidents:

http://www.durham.net/~cedar/famous.html

And about your infamous page 19 facts; the reason we are not addressing them is because they are not facts. You just made them up, or the people who wrote them originally made them up. There isn't a drop of science, logic, common sense or, most importantly, truth to any of the things you say.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Go point by point would you... and debunk them instead of saying I’m a liar.

(apparently 1/4 of the American population)

Just keep repeating what South Park says, BTW its more like half, but whatever

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Less_ ... _0523.html


Did you do this research? No, you didn't. I know you didn't. You read somebody else's research. Now I'm not a betting man, but I'd wager a left nut that this person doesn't know anything about what he speaks either.


You know why I give Marky so much propz??? because he actually counters with something instead of just saying it's all garbage and your a liar.

IT’S ALL ABOUT THE EFFORT, remember that

Now this is more of a rheotorical argument, but how can you expect any of us to believe you? We are supposed to distrust our government, essentially the entire city of New York, the victims and the victims families of those on Flight 93, and our own eyes?


No, you're supposed to do your own research and make your own conclusions and be aware of the fact that the official story isn’t the only possibility.

Now if I am not supposed to trust all those people, how can I trust anybody? If I cannot trust anybody, then, by definition, I cannot trust you.


SUPER LOGIC SPIN BONUS! :lol: :lol: 10 Points for you, but maybe you need to be talking to a shrink about your trust issues instead of posting garbage on a net forum.

Even Oliver Stone doesn't believe this crap, and he thinks there is a conspiracy in everything. You know what? Keep thinking that you are smarter than everyone. Keep thinking that I and the rest of America are sheep. Who would I be to try to take away your little game?


Now you’re assuming you know what Stone is thinking, and what his motives are, maybe you know all this because you’re psychic perhaps? Never said I was smarter than everyone, I just think I’m smarter than you.

Call Marky back in here, he’s really the only one worth responding to TTFN
MarkusFarkus
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:12 am

Postby MarkusFarkus » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:13 am

Maybe Marky's gotten sick of you.

Respond to me, WUSS! What do you think? I'm just gonna skip by all your technical sh*t until you respond.

And Ryan too while you're at it.
OnagiPowa
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:04 am

Postby OnagiPowa » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:32 am

Or he probably just went back to Colbert Report forums…

Ole boy Marky’s not a quitter though, I’m sure after he’s microwaved some ham & cheese hot pockets he’ll be back in the game. Just give him some time

Respond to me, WUSS!


Wait hold on... first I need to wipe off my bleeding vagina... AHHH! That’s better, second childish name calling retards don’t deserve a response. I stick to Mizark and the pros not you

Sorry chap :cry:
ryan_mn1
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:09 pm

Postby ryan_mn1 » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:32 am

I'll be honest, I'm lazy.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Go point by point would you... and debunk them instead of saying I’m a liar.


You omitted my comment on McNamara being fired. I called you on that. I'm not going to look up your bogus websites and take them on point for point. Rather, I will make an example of the crap you use with simple American history. I've studied that crap. It cost a lot of money. I've heard all of the tapes for the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and Viet Nam. That simple error you made with McNamara's name let's me know you are either lying, or are an idiot.

I suppose you could be government agent trying to perpetuate the myth too. By the way, that would be awesome.

One last thing. You're never too old to say "dude." My grandma says things are "cool" still. I figure I have another 50+ years to enjoy acting young. Who am I kidding? I'm 22.
OnagiPowa
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:04 am

Postby OnagiPowa » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:40 am

ryan_mn1 wrote:I'll be honest, I'm lazy.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Go point by point would you... and debunk them instead of saying I’m a liar.


You omitted my comment on McNamara being fired. I called you on that. I'm not going to look up your bogus websites and take them on point for point. Rather, I will make an example of the crap you use with simple American history. I've studied that crap. It cost a lot of money. I've heard all of the tapes for the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and Viet Nam. That simple error you made with McNamara's name let's me know you are either lying, or are an idiot.

I suppose you could be government agent trying to perpetuate the myth too. By the way, that would be awesome.

One last thing. You're never too old to say "dude." My grandma says things are "cool" still. I figure I have another 50+ years to enjoy acting young. Who am I kidding? I'm 22.



I believe my quote was:

And it was a coincidence that JFK got killed after firing his defense secretary Robert McNamara (the architect of Operation Northwoods, a plan to stage 9/11 style attacks on US soil and blame it on Cuba in order to invade them)
-ME

You omitted my comment on McNamara being fired. I called you on that.
-YOU

Yea you really called me out on that one pal after I already said in my initial post that he got fired.

I will make an example of the crap you use with simple American history.


LMFAO! GOOD JOB PAL!
Last edited by OnagiPowa on Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
ryan_mn1
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:09 pm

Postby ryan_mn1 » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:53 am

I'll try this a little slower.

You said McNamara was fired by JFK.

He was not. He didn't step down until late into the Johnson administration.

That means that you were wrong.

That's what I meant by saying that I called you on that one.

If you need me to dumb this thing down for you any more, I will not be able to use complete sentences.
MarkusFarkus
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:12 am

Postby MarkusFarkus » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:07 am

Onagi, you bore me. Nothing then. Besides the ADL or whatever that is.

To turn a phrase, I think you're seeing the trees for the forest. Fine. It's a free country.

Any one else then?
Last edited by MarkusFarkus on Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
SEEKTHETRUTH
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:58 am

Postby SEEKTHETRUTH » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:10 am

SterileEyes wrote:
OnagiPowa wrote:Popular Mechanics!!!!! CMON!!! you can do better than that, your not even trying anymore!

.


Again with the 'experts' who can't even spell. That's 'you're', son.

And the Debunking 9/11 Popular Mechanics book goes into the Author/Chertoff connection. They are distant cousins who have never met. They pointed it out anyway because they knew your types would try to exploit it. Had you bothered to read a page out of the book, you would know that.

Besides, the PM folks slaughtered the Loose Change nuts in that 9/11 debate...and they're not even 'experts', they just edit the magazine. Seems to me Dylan Avery couldn't beat even a casual observer of this whole thing...every response he gave was 'you're a liar'. Real mature and intelligent sh*t, I'm telling you!

Anyway, my main point: PLEASE learn to spell before you pretend to be smarter than other people. Theeeeeeeeeanks!


the creator of pm was the founder of yellow journalism and cronyism and gets plenty of advertisements and money from government security contractors so of course they are going to be biased...

pm has been debunked often... booooo
George Washington]
It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am.
OnagiPowa
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:04 am

Postby OnagiPowa » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:12 am

Lemnitzer, wrote a letter to Secretary McNamara to go ahead with the op, He asked that the JCS be placed in charge of carrying out Operation Northwoods and the invasion into Cuba. "It is recommended," he wrote, "that this responsibility for both overt and covert military operations be assigned to the Joint Chiefs of Staff." At 2:30 on the afternoon of Tuesday, March 13, 1962, Lemnitzer went over last-minute details of Operation Northwoods with his covert action chief, Brigadier General William H. Craig, and signed the document. He then went to a "special meeting" in McNamara's office. An hour later he met with Kennedy's military representative, General Maxwell Taylor. What happened during those meetings is unknown. But three days later, President Kennedy told Lemnitzer that there was virtually no possibility that the U.S. would ever use overt military force in Cuba. Shortly after Northwoods tanked and the whole Bay of Pigs fiasco he “resigned” from the position of secretary of defense in 68. Technically you’re right, he wasn’t fired he was forced to resign.

Just like Nixon wasn’t fired, he just had to “leave”.
Last edited by OnagiPowa on Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
SEEKTHETRUTH
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:58 am

Postby SEEKTHETRUTH » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:19 am

^^^
yup..

and actually JFK was killed 10 dayz after making this quote...


"The high office of the president has been used to foment a plot to destroy America's freedom, and before I leave office, I must inform the citizens of their plight."

-JFK
Last edited by SEEKTHETRUTH on Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
George Washington]
It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am.
BoneZugz
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:15 am

Postby BoneZugz » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:20 am

eh i dont really care about cover ups and sh*t our government does.. not like i can stop them


anyways, did anyone else notice that they have now changed president bushes voice since the premier of the Urinal Deuce episode? i saw the rerun tonight and bushs voice was completely different, i wonder why... hmmm
SEEKTHETRUTH
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:58 am

Postby SEEKTHETRUTH » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:21 am

BoneZugz wrote:eh i dont really care about cover ups and sh*t our government does.. not like i can stop them


sad...
George Washington]
It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am.
MarkusFarkus
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:12 am

Postby MarkusFarkus » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:25 am

BoneZugz wrote:eh i dont really care about cover ups and sh*t our government does.. not like i can stop them


anyways, did anyone else notice that they have now changed president bushes voice since the premier of the Urinal Deuce episode? i saw the rerun tonight and bushs voice was completely different, i wonder why... hmmm


Wrong thread, dude.
ryan_mn1
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:09 pm

Postby ryan_mn1 » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:26 am

OnagiPowa wrote:Lemnitzer, wrote a letter to Secretary McNamara to go ahead with the op, He asked that the JCS be placed in charge of carrying out Operation Northwoods and the invasion into Cuba. "It is recommended," he wrote, "that this responsibility for both overt and covert military operations be assigned to the Joint Chiefs of Staff." At 2:30 on the afternoon of Tuesday, March 13, 1962, Lemnitzer went over last-minute details of Operation Northwoods with his covert action chief, Brigadier General William H. Craig, and signed the document. He then went to a "special meeting" in McNamara's office. An hour later he met with Kennedy's military representative, General Maxwell Taylor. What happened during those meetings is unknown. But three days later, President Kennedy told Lemnitzer that there was virtually no possibility that the you.S. would ever use overt military force in Cuba. Shortly after Northwoods tanked and the whole Bay of Pigs fiasco he “resigned” from the position of secretary of defense in 68. Technically you’re right, he wasn’t fired he was forced to resign.

Just like Nixon wasn’t fired, he just had to “leave”.


I don't know where you got this, but it is a lie. McNamara served as Secretary of Defense up until JFK's assasination, with Johnson serving out the remainder of JFK's term, and throughout Johnson's term up until Feb. 29, 1968.

This is history. Do not try to change it.

You're still wrong. Squirm all you want, but you're stuck son.

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